No winners gun fights

[mmc45414]

Leading causes of losing a non-ambush gun fight (meaning there was some interaction between the participants prior to shots being fire) remain:
*not in ranked order*
1) presenting a non-functioning firearm
2) getting entangled
3) being outnumbered by offenders dedicated enough to remain in the fight

This may be one of the most important threads to be posted in a long time. (Imho.)

Yeah, and this is why I value the commentary here, and @BehindBlueI's has always been very generous with solid, real world documentable input, and I appreciate it.

As I get older, I realize more and more the benefits of the "just walk away" concept. As in, when I get pissed off by the general stupidity of the human race, and my lizard brains starts to contemplate some kind of "action", would I really just rather walk away. Generally the answer is yes.

I think one of the life lessons age has brought me is, potentially after getting screwed enough to acknowledge that getting screwed is gonna happen, that there are plenty of stupid people out there, and it is best to avoid them rather than beating them. Sometimes the best you can do is break contact.

"You can be absolutely magnificent in a gunfight and still die." -- Clint Smith

I think this ties in with the adage that you will run out of time before you run out of ammo.

Meaning, maybe not walking down that (I am armed) street or keeping your mouth shut or reasonable situational awareness.

I like to tell people, if you are armed, don't go anyplace you would not go if you are unarmed.

As a friend says: your ego is not your amigo.

Hadn't heard that one, so true...

[Joe in PNG]

It's an unfortunate fact that many people in the shooting community actually think that they have a responsibility to interfere and intervene in observed criminal activity.

The idea is that they can somehow reverse the criminal tendencies of their communities by acting as if a CCW license was a badge.

[SouthNarc]

In general terms, I've had both.

Leading causes of losing a non-ambush gun fight....

M can you flesh that out a little more? Do you mean by ambush that the fight started with the GG being fired upon?

[JohnO]

It's an unfortunate fact that many people in the shooting community actually think that they have a responsibility to interfere and intervene in observed criminal activity.

The idea is that they can somehow reverse the criminal tendencies of their communities by acting as if a CCW license was a badge.

#1. They're not Batman!

#2. They may decide after the fact that they should have minded their own business. If they are around to decide!

[BehindBlueI's]

M can you flesh that out a little more? Do you mean by ambush that the fight started with the GG being fired upon?

Non-ambush- meaning there was some interaction between the participants prior to shots being fire

As in they argued, a robbery demand was made, a threat was issued, etc. The fight may still start with the bg firing, but the gg was aware of his presence and had time to make some social and/or fight related decisions

Ambush would be something like a targeted hit, drive by, "sniper attack", etc. in which the gg had no chance to make any decisions prior to being shot at


A few incidents combine them. Delivery driver confronted by two armed suspects making demands, but a third lays off behind him and shoots him unaware.

[45dotACP]

In general terms, I've had both.

Leading causes of losing a non-ambush gun fight (meaning there was some interaction between the participants prior to shots being fire) remain:
*not in ranked order*
1) presenting a non-functioning firearm
2) getting entangled
3) being outnumbered by offenders dedicated enough to remain in the fight

When talking about being outnumbered...I hear a lot of guys talk about how their snub is a "one bad guy gun" or their Glock 19 is a "3 bad guy gun" or something of the like.

It seems like a miserable situation if you're fighting three armed assailants simultaneously, but does capacity figure much into these wins vs losses as it pertains to being outnumbered?

I guess what I'm asking is "is my Glock 19 REALLY a 3 bad guy gun or is it just a gun that helps me stay in a fight with one guy for just a little longer? Because a fight with 3 guys seems like I'll run out of life before running out of bullets."

[SouthNarc]

Ambush would be something like a targeted hit, drive by, "sniper attack", etc. in which the gg had no chance to make any decisions prior to being shot at

Is that common now? Opening up on a civilian with gunfire versus a weapons hold with demands or a sucker punch was fairly uncommon back in the day but the trends may have changed.

Or are you talking more scumbag on scumbag stuff like dope rips?

[SouthNarc]

Something's up with the weird double/triple posting thing.

[cpd2110]

When talking about being outnumbered...I hear a lot of guys talk about how their snub is a "one bad guy gun" or their Glock 19 is a "3 bad guy gun" or something of the like.

It seems like a miserable situation if you're fighting three armed assailants simultaneously, but does capacity figure much into these wins vs losses as it pertains to being outnumbered?

I guess what I'm asking is "is my Glock 19 REALLY a 3 bad guy gun or is it just a gun that helps me stay in a fight with one guy for just a little longer? Because a fight with 3 guys seems like I'll run out of life before running out of bullets."

We hosted a couple of LAPD SIS guys a number of years ago. This topic came up and his answer was based on LE response and stats so take that under consideration. He said in LE terms 70-80% of shots fired do not hit the target. This includes the first two rounds that are likely errant. He had a view into the goal is incapacitation but how many rounds does that take, obviously lots of variables. In the end, he said at minimum 8-10 rounds for an off-duty carry gun. He also stated most likely to face 2 suspects or to at least plan on that. I typically carry a G19.5 off duty and a spare mag. When I do carry say a G43 or S&W Shield, and concealment is my plan (think shorts), I carry the standard magazine in the gun and a spare larger capacity mag. The guy who taught the class has since retired, lives in a rural area and does contract work. His standard carry is a G48 with the shield mags. I think it really comes down to where you live/work and what threats might be presented. A year ago when I was in a UC capacity the G19.5, spare mag was my go to 100% carry option, most of the guys in the unit carried a mid-size to even full-size gun on/off duty based on the area we worked in most of the time. It was more likely any bad guy(s) we dealt with would be well armed in terms of capacity, including AR pistols or Glocks with 30 round mags.

[BehindBlueI's]

Something's up with the weird double/triple posting thing.

I kept getting the '500' error then they all showed up, deleted dupes.