For the 2 1/2 people here who have never done FoF or ECQC related training…

[MickAK]

Givens’ DGU data the only reality-based data we, as private citizens, presently have available to us with which we can use as a guide to prioritize our training.

That isn't true, and it isn't difficult to find even on this forum. The people we have here who track and experience real world firearm usage make a point of learning grappling even if they really don't want to and I think that says a lot.

If a trained wrestler prioritizes it that makes sense. If middle aged guys with no prior training or experience make a point to get at least competent I pay attention and I think you should too.

[Totem Polar]

We can accommodate pretty much any infirmity, and I would further say that if you can walk and stand, we can probably facilitate a safe and valuable training experience.

I find this to be a fair statement, based on a modicum of both direct and observational experience during the courses.

[1slow]

The oldest so far to have completed ECQC is 75. Probably the most debilitated is a guy who had both a heart and lung transplant within 18 months of doing the coursework. This past weekend in MA. I had a guy that just finished a fairly horrendous round of chemo and he was able to train within his limitations.

We can accommodate pretty much any infirmity, and I would further say that if you can walk and stand, we can probably facilitate a safe and valuable training experience.

Having been through ECQC multiple times, Craig can and will safely train anyone who is willing. It will not be comfortable or ego stroking but that is true of effective training in general. I believe that the more you dislike the idea of ECQC th more you need it.
It is a very critical skill set.

[Shawn Dodson]

I have had almost 70 students involved in defensive gunplay….

Only two of my students’ shootings occurred at contact distance. In one of those cases the physical contact was purely accidental. In the other case physical contact was intentional but the victim missed a large number of cues before he was struck with a club.

At the other end of the spectrum we have had three students who have had to engage at 15, 17, and 22 yards.

The other 92% of our student involved incidents took place at a distance of 3 to 7 yards with the majority occurring between 3 and 5 yards. The rule of thumb then is that most civilian shootings occur within the length of a car.

Training implications

Based on this data, we believe the following are the key skills the private citizen should concentrate on in their training:

• Quick, safe, efficient presentation of the handgun from concealed carry
• Delivery of several well-placed shots at distances from 3 to 7 yards
• Keeping the gun running, including reloading and fixing malfunctions
• Two-handed firing. We train our students to use two hands if at all possible and most have done so in their fights.
• Bring the gun to eye level. This is the fastest way to achieve accurate gun alignment. All but two of our students brought the gun to eye level and as a result they got good hits. Two had to shoot from below eye level due to unusual circumstances, at less than arm’s length from their attacker.
• Some effort expended on the contact distance problem, including empty hand skills and weapon retention skills. However, these are secondary skills for the private citizen.
• Some effort dedicated to longer shots in the 15 to 25 yard range.

Givens, Tom: “What Happens in a Civilian Gunfight: Now we know what to train for.”
_ _ _ _ _

“Only three incidents occurred at contact distance. In one of these cases, physical contact between the attacker and the defender was deliberate; in another, contact was purely accidental; in the third, there was no actual physical contact….”

“…The rest of the shootings, 93.1 percent of them, occurred between 3 yards and 7 yards with more than 80 percent occurring between 3 and 5 yards... Based on that, we do the majority of our training and practice at that 3- to 5- yard distance.”

Givens, Tom: Concealed Carry Class: The ABCs of Self-defense Tools and Tactics. 2019, Caribou Media Group, LLC. Chapter 12, Training Priorities, pp. 85-98.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I appreciate that Craig can take physical attributes into account. I will raise another aspect than my health. I did do things that had risk of hurting me into my 60's. Came home with some rainbow bruises that looked good in the gym and class. One weird hand injury. However, now I have care taker responsibility so I don't want to risk being laid up. Same reason, I don't go to Givens. I need to stay in a quicker back home radius. Long distance travel would only be for another emergency. Such is life, sigh.

[Noah]

I have had almost 70 students involved in defensive gunplay….

Only two of my students’ shootings occurred at contact distance. In one of those cases the physical contact was purely accidental. In the other case physical contact was intentional but the victim missed a large number of cues before he was struck with a club.

At the other end of the spectrum we have had three students who have had to engage at 15, 17, and 22 yards.

The other 92% of our student involved incidents took place at a distance of 3 to 7 yards with the majority occurring between 3 and 5 yards. The rule of thumb then is that most civilian shootings occur within the length of a car.

Training implications

Based on this data, we believe the following are the key skills the private citizen should concentrate on in their training:

• Quick, safe, efficient presentation of the handgun from concealed carry
• Delivery of several well-placed shots at distances from 3 to 7 yards
• Keeping the gun running, including reloading and fixing malfunctions
• Two-handed firing. We train our students to use two hands if at all possible and most have done so in their fights.
• Bring the gun to eye level. This is the fastest way to achieve accurate gun alignment. All but two of our students brought the gun to eye level and as a result they got good hits. Two had to shoot from below eye level due to unusual circumstances, at less than arm’s length from their attacker.
• Some effort expended on the contact distance problem, including empty hand skills and weapon retention skills. However, these are secondary skills for the private citizen.
• Some effort dedicated to longer shots in the 15 to 25 yard range.

Givens, Tom: “What Happens in a Civilian Gunfight: Now we know what to train for.”
_ _ _ _ _

“Only three incidents occurred at contact distance. In one of these cases, physical contact between the attacker and the defender was deliberate; in another, contact was purely accidental; in the third, there was no actual physical contact….”

“…The rest of the shootings, 93.1 percent of them, occurred between 3 yards and 7 yards with more than 80 percent occurring between 3 and 5 yards... Based on that, we do the majority of our training and practice at that 3- to 5- yard distance.”

Givens, Tom: Concealed Carry Class: The ABCs of Self-defense Tools and Tactics. 2019, Caribou Media Group, LLC. Chapter 12, Training Priorities, pp. 85-98.

What about violent self defense incidents that didn't involve the use of the firearm?

[Lex Luthier]

Craig has already committed to coming back next year. He will be there the the first part of August. I am going to take the class again. Cecil is going to be in Lacy(ish) area in October and I would strongly recommend you take his class first. I am going to be there.

This is useful advice; thank you.

[luckyman]

Is there anywhere other than https://shivworks.corsizio.com to see scheduled clases?