Responding to a suicidal, armed person

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Might be of interest to some of you. From a psych, news feed:

https://link.springer.com/article/10...96-020-09384-0

Police Response to the Armed and Suicidal
Andrew T. Young, Brandon Pierpoint & Carlos Perez
Journal of Police and Criminal Psychology volume 37, pages769–776 (2022)Cite this article

Abstract
The current study presented police officers with an armed suicidal subject scenario during an in-service training, and their responses to this scenario were quantified. Officers then participated in a group debriefing and educational session after the scenario. One hundred and eight officers and deputies participated in the current study, and the researchers found that a majority of officers (72.2%) did not shoot the armed suicidal subject. Nine officers (8.3%) never gave a verbal command when faced with an armed suicidal subject, 22% never drew their weapon, and 86.2% walked closer to the subject and/or allowed the subject to walk closer to them. Many officers did nothing when the role player disobeyed their commands to stop moving towards them and 57.8% of officers walked backwards when faced with this threat. Officers removed the gun from the suicidal subject’s hand 32.1% of the time.

Lots more discussion of the dynamics, officer characteristics, Tueller, etc.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

PS - saw this also on response times.

https://www.forcescience.com/2023/08...-common-sense/

[Coyotesfan97]

We trained that armed’ suicidal suspects are just a step away from homicidal. If an armed, suicidal person was approaching you and disobeyed commands to drop the weapon and stop you shot them unless you had less lethal with lethal cover. Then you could try less lethal.

We had a FoF simunition drill where a suspect with a gun to his head kept walking towards the Officer never stopping. Initially we’d have long chases sometimes. We’d also demonstrate action vs reaction using this drill. I’ve acted this scenario. Even with the Officer having his weapon pointed ready to shoot I never saw any get the first shot off when the actor pointed and shot. The best was just a tie. Sometimes it was two shots before the Officer shot. I’ve been retired three years but back in the day this study would’ve been a lot different using my agency.

[RevolverJIM]

We trained that armed’ suicidal suspects are just a step away from homicidal. If an armed, suicidal person was approaching you and disobeyed commands to drop the weapon and stop you shot them unless you had less lethal with lethal cover. Then you could try less lethal.

We had a FoF simunition drill where a suspect with a gun to his head kept walking towards the Officer never stopping. Initially we’d have long chases sometimes. We’d also demonstrate action vs reaction using this drill. I’ve acted this scenario. Even with the Officer having his weapon pointed ready to shoot I never saw any get the first shot off when the actor pointed and shot. The best was just a tie. Sometimes it was two shots before the Officer shot. I’ve been retired three years but back in the day this study would’ve been a lot different using my agency.

Realism beats theory.

[Mas]

The suicidal suspect may be the most dangerous we can face.

Suicide is, by definition, inner-directed homicide.

Therefore, also by definition,the suicidal suspect must be considered homicidal.

Every other armed and potentially homicidal person we face, we are taught to face with our own gun up and in hand, ready to fire. The suicidal person, however, we've been taught by society to face with open and empty hands as we try to convey, "Let me help you."

If we are dealing with a thwarted loser ready to both kill and die, that posture on our part can be interpreted by the subject as us indicating, "We don't take you seriously, and we, the helper, are obviously stronger than you, the one we see as needing help." This can trigger a response of "God damn you, I'll show you why you should take me seriously!" -- BANG.

And, as others have already pointed out here, action beats reaction...

[41magfan]

I can remember, even after decades of responding to these incidents, how unpredictable they could be. Far too often, the ones I thought were going to end well, would end up shooting/stabbing themselves. Just as often, the one's I thought were going to do the deed would end up in custody (without incident) crying like a baby in the back of my patrol car.

Rightly or wrongly, I never had a Messiah complex when dealing with these poor souls, so I never unnecessarily exposed myself to the potential dangers when dealing with them.

[Utm]

We trained that armed’ suicidal suspects are just a step away from homicidal. If an armed, suicidal person was approaching you and disobeyed commands to drop the weapon and stop you shot them unless you had less lethal with lethal cover. Then you could try less lethal.

We had a FoF simunition drill where a suspect with a gun to his head kept walking towards the Officer never stopping. Initially we’d have long chases sometimes. We’d also demonstrate action vs reaction using this drill. I’ve acted this scenario. Even with the Officer having his weapon pointed ready to shoot I never saw any get the first shot off when the actor pointed and shot. The best was just a tie. Sometimes it was two shots before the Officer shot. I’ve been retired three years but back in the day this study would’ve been a lot different using my agency.

Same at my agency. Action vs reaction drill is typically done when new recruits come out of the academy. Also if a suicidal subject is inside of a residence and alone and they don't want to come out, we're clearing the call at my dept. No need to push.

[1slow]

Do not risk yourself or any of your people for someone who is tired of being here.

If you can talk them down from a distance fine. Otherwise it is on them. If they are threatening an innocent , it is a hostage event.

When I was younger, I was advised, never aggravate someone who is tired of being here.

[Coyotesfan97]

Same at my agency. Action vs reaction drill is typically done when new recruits come out of the academy. Also if a suicidal subject is inside of a residence and alone and they don't want to come out, we're clearing the call at my dept. No need to push.

I’m trying to remember when we started doing that. I’m thinking 2005ish. Our SWAT commander learned from another agency (San Diego) I think that’s what they were doing. He pushed it and suicidal barricade calls dropped drastically. I can remember being on some loonngg barricades back in the day. We had some exceptions like an armed suicidal subject threatening others etc. But most of the time we’d respond to the call. We’d attempt to call them or use a car PA for contact. No response or a refusal to come out we’d leave. Now we have a full time crisis squad. They’ll go out the next day to try to talk to them.

[jnc36rcpd]

In my experience, most threatened suicides are usually not going to be actual suicides. If the person was committed to suicide, it would have already happened. In the case of an armed subject refusing police commands, he or she may want to commit suicide by cop or perhaps being seeking attention.The attempt to suicide by cop can certainly place police in jeopardy. After all, how better to provoke a deadly force response than by shooting a cop?

If the armed subject is in public, we're stuck dealing with him. Despite the Washington Post editorial board's opinion, we are largely successful in dealing with the mentally ill without deadly force, to include threatened suicides and even armed threatened suicides. If less-lethal options can be used with lethal cover, that's a good thing. That said, our officers, politicians, and the Post editorial board need to be informed of the priority of life. Innocent people and even cops come ahead of the subjects.

I agree completely with training and policy to leave a threatened armed suicide in a private location. This may be unfortunate for some suicidal people and their loved ones, but I think the risk of cops being prosecuted or fired if we intervene and use high levels of force outweighs the risk of the subject actually suiciding.