The pitfalls of semi-automatic shotguns in the hands of "casual" users...

[TCinVA]

I am a big fan of the Beretta 1301T as a defensive shotgun. I own two and will likely own more in the future. Most of my friends own one. Many of my clients have bought one based on seeing them in action in class.

I get shotgun questions all the time (naturally) and one I see frequently is why anyone would go with a pump gun over a semi-auto given the benefits that the best semi-auto shotguns offer. I believe we see the biggest issue I point to towards the end of the above video.

Especially in guns with shell cutoffs, getting a semi-automatic into action from a stored ready condition can be significantly more difficult than a pump gun. With a pump we train running the action to make the gun fire every time we shoot. CHUNK-CHUNK-BOOM is easy for our caveman brain to remember, especially as we have to work the action every time we press the trigger to get it to shoot again. We're literally training the action necessary to get the gun into action every time we fire multiple shots.

I see the complications of semi-auto shotguns...especially those with shell cutoffs...bite people in class on a regular basis. This is especially true during the first few exercises of the day for folks who haven't practiced with their shotgun recently. I most often see folks running the bolt on a gun like the M4 or the 1301 without hitting the shell release first, resulting in running the bolt multiple times to no avail. Or they run the bolt, press the trigger, get nothing, then run the bolt again and only then get a round to feed.

I'm going to quote from user @AMC in the LE UOF thread:

Most common error in manipulation with our guys using semiautomatic Beretta shotguns was failing to hit the shell release button. They'd just continue to run the bolt, never figuring out why the gun wouldn't fire.

No. Patrol ready was full tube, empty chamber, safety on. Procedure was: shell carrier release, run the bolt, safety off when actually firing.

The problem was a complete and total lack of sustainment training. Five rounds at 10 yards once a year, with no accountability for hits or any skill at manipulation does not constitute 'training'. It's why most officers didn't even bother to take a shotgun on patrol. They were afraid of the thing.

I encourage folks to store their 1301 with a shell on the lifter so that they can just run the bolt and get the gun into action. But if someone is stuck with an LE policy that requires a full tube, empty chamber, nothing on the lifter, and safety on it's going to take a lot of training and (most crucially) sustainment to develop getting the gun charged and ready to shoot automatically when they are under stress.

If someone isn't willing or able to do that level of work, or if they just know they're not touching the shotgun unless they need it, then this more "casual" (for lack of a better term) user would likely be better off with a pump gun.

[HarryB]

I keep my bedroom 1301 chamber empty and one on the lifter. So if awakened in the middle of the night, the bolt handle is a lot easier to find (and remember) if I need to respond to a threat. I'm not a LEO nor operator--just a well armed citizen.

[GearFondler]

@TCinVA, with the 1301 in particular, when set up empty chamber/one on the lifter, does it matter long term if the hammer is left cocked?
I know it makes it a bit harder to cycle the bolt after the hammer has dropped but it's not a problem for me. But I do hate the idea of the hammer staying cocked indefinitely... But I also hate pulling the trigger to drop that hammer after I load the lifter. I pull the bolt back at least twice to verify the chamber really is empty but it still feels wrong to do it.
Anyway, mine is 7 in the tube, 1 on the lifter, hammer dropped, safety off.
If I need it I can run the bolt then engage the safety if not immediately needed.

[TCinVA]

@TCinVA, with the 1301 in particular, when set up empty chamber/one on the lifter, does it matter long term if the hammer is left cocked?

I haven't seen any indication that it's going to cause any sort of problem. The 1301's trigger has the sear on it:


...sorta kinda in the same ballpark as the AR15's trigger group. I don't know of any long term issues with the AR being stored in a cocked state, and in the time the 1301 has been out I don't know of anyone who has encountered a problem resulting from having the gun stored with the hammer cocked.

I know it makes it a bit harder to cycle the bolt after the hammer has dropped but it's not a problem for me. But I do hate the idea of the hammer staying cocked indefinitely... But I also hate pulling the trigger to drop that hammer after I load the lifter. I pull the bolt back at least twice to verify the chamber really is empty but it still feels wrong to do it.

The reason I store an 870 with the hammer down on a closed bolt is because I don't want to have to fool with the action lock to get the gun into action. A lot of police departments mandate that the action be locked as a part of their setup procedure and it's not uncommon to see officers struggling to get the gun into action. I'm trying to avoid that for clients.

My teaching to them...and it's documented on video...is to ensure there are absolutely no shells in the gun *period* when they press the trigger without intending to fire a shot.

My advice on the 1301 would be exactly the same. I do not want to press the trigger on a 1301 that has live ammunition in it unless I intend to send a payload into something...because sooner or later it will get messed up and that's exactly what will happen.

It feels wrong to do it because you're pressing the trigger on a loaded gun and hoping it doesn't fire. That feeling of discomfort is your brain telling you this is a bad idea. So don't do it. Even if leaving the hammer cocked killed the hammer spring...which we have absolutely no indication is the case...I'd much rather replace one every now and then than set myself up to send a load of buckshot somewhere in the house.

[GearFondler]

I haven't seen any indication that it's going to cause any sort of problem. The 1301's trigger has the sear on it:


...sorta kinda in the same ballpark as the AR15's trigger group. I don't know of any long term issues with the AR being stored in a cocked state, and in the time the 1301 has been out I don't know of anyone who has encountered a problem resulting from having the gun stored with the hammer cocked.



The reason I store an 870 with the hammer down on a closed bolt is because I don't want to have to fool with the action lock to get the gun into action. A lot of police departments mandate that the action be locked as a part of their setup procedure and it's not uncommon to see officers struggling to get the gun into action. I'm trying to avoid that for clients.

My teaching to them...and it's documented on video...is to ensure there are absolutely no shells in the gun *period* when they press the trigger without intending to fire a shot.

My advice on the 1301 would be exactly the same. I do not want to press the trigger on a 1301 that has live ammunition in it unless I intend to send a payload into something...because sooner or later it will get messed up and that's exactly what will happen.

It feels wrong to do it because you're pressing the trigger on a loaded gun and hoping it doesn't fire. That feeling of discomfort is your brain telling you this is a bad idea. So don't do it. Even if leaving the hammer cocked killed the hammer spring...which we have absolutely no indication is the case...I'd much rather replace one every now and then than set myself up to send a load of buckshot somewhere in the house.

Thanks for the education and advice.... And even better, I'll now follow it. Thanks again.

[Navin Johnson]

@TCinVA, with the 1301 in particular, when set up empty chamber/one on the lifter, does it matter long term if the hammer is left cocked?
I know it makes it a bit harder to cycle the bolt after the hammer has dropped but it's not a problem for me. But I do hate the idea of the hammer staying cocked indefinitely... But I also hate pulling the trigger to drop that hammer after I load the lifter. I pull the bolt back at least twice to verify the chamber really is empty but it still feels wrong to do it.
Anyway, mine is 7 in the tube, 1 on the lifter, hammer dropped, safety off.
If I need it I can run the bolt then engage the safety if not immediately needed.

Properly designed springs made of appropriate material for the application "wear out" do to cycles (not compression or extension) as long as they are operating within design parameters.

This goes for magazine springs also.

[Borderland]

Do LE agencies carry their shotguns in condition 1, or a round in the chamber, hammer cocked and safety on. just asking because IDK.

Anyway, that seems to be a receipt for disaster given that smaller agencies probably won't get the training they need to operate an autoloader safely.

[WobblyPossum]

Do LE agencies carry their shotguns in condition 1, or a round in the chamber, hammer cocked and safety on. just asking because IDK.

Anyway, that seems to be a receipt for disaster given that smaller agencies probably won't get the training they need to operate an autoloader safely.

Not in my experience. Guns in patrol car rifle/shotgun racks are generally kept with empty chambers. Same with guns stored in the trunk or cargo area. Long guns generally only get chambered when it’s time to use them. If the long gun isn’t in an officer’s/agent’s hands it generally has an empty chamber primarily because the majority of long guns aren’t drop safe and a vehicle collision could cause one to fire.

[penates]

Do LE agencies carry their shotguns in condition 1, or a round in the chamber, hammer cocked and safety on. just asking because IDK.

Anyway, that seems to be a receipt for disaster given that smaller agencies probably won't get the training they need to operate an autoloader safely.

Most agencies carry in cruiser ready for pump guns, empty chamber and safety off, just rack and go.

[lwt16]

Most agencies carry in cruiser ready for pump guns, empty chamber and safety off, just rack and go.

This.

I was one of the few still rocking a scattergun once they handed out patrol rifles.

Safety off, empty chamber, hammer down, full mag tube of 00 buck.

Hit the gun release, grab shotgun, rack a round, engage safety (if necessary) and top off mag tube (if time allowed).