Deep thoughts on LE loadout these days

[KevH]

I think most supervisors would shit a brick if they heard officers using suppression/directed/focused/whatever fire. So the exposure to a larger part of the department is critical.

We have taught the concept in the past. I remember around 2008 or so doing a bunch of training with an "Australian peel." Is there potentially a time and a place for it? Maybe.

We work in places where people live, where they work, where they go to school, where they wait for the bus, etc. Our shootings often occur in these areas right?

When shooting starts, people's homes, schools, businesses, and churches are often in our backdrop.

Keep in mind that this is the world we live in:
https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/l...store/3040509/

Suppressing fire on a suspect in an open field may be one thing. Doing it in a neighborhood is another.

...and remember, if you teach someone to do something, some will likely do it. Even if it not the appropriate thing to do in that setting.

So I would be cautious with instructing those tactics. Just saying. Because you or me may be the supervisor shitting the brick someday depending on where and how it is deployed.

[Coyotesfan97]

We have taught the concept in the past. I remember around 2008 or so doing a bunch of training with an "Australian peel." Is there potentially a time and a place for it? Maybe.

We work in places where people live, where they work, where they go to school, where they wait for the bus, etc. Our shootings often occur in these areas right?

When shooting starts, people's homes, schools, businesses, and churches are often in our backdrop.

Keep in mind that this is the world we live in:
https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/l...store/3040509/

Suppressing fire on a suspect in an open field may be one thing. Doing it in a neighborhood is another.

...and remember, if you teach someone to do something, some will likely do it. Even if it not the appropriate thing to do in that setting.

So I would be cautious with instructing those tactics. Just saying. Because you or me may be the supervisor shitting the brick someday depending on where and how it is deployed.

I never participated in it because I retired but I know our rifle instructors were planning on incorporating non rifle Officers into the bounding overwatch training so they’d be exposed to it.

Our rifle training was quarterly. The people in the program shot a lot. Any time the instructors taught suppression/directed fire they reviewed and drilled when it was appropriate or not. We were taught to use the foundation or similar hard targets on buildings as the aiming point.

[UNM1136]

One of my new guys bought one of those made in PRC kinda Dragonskin non NIJ certified vests. After three days he called in sick for a week because of his back pain. He pulled out the "plates" and put in his issued panels. Then, because there was MOLLE on the outside he hung every flipping thing he could on it. Rifle mag, IFAK, pistol mags. Many at 2-10 O'clock. Many of us questioned how he would go over fences and walls in foot pursuits.

Then we found out. The OEF veteran had not secured his pouches properly. In his first foot pursuit with the vest a bunch of pouches came off to provide a trail of the chase. With the help of another senior officer the dummy wore my hand cuffs to jail...

In smug moments I would say he did not understand his gear, and lost it. In more smug moments I would say his gear was too heavy, poorly positioned and had to be dumped.

I have tried to talk to him and he just deflects...Still wears the vest that youthingy claimed to be able to stop .50BMG at some wierd number of yards...but took the plates out.

But he had places to put shit, so he did...

pat

[Chuck Whitlock]

FOF is valuable but particularly time intensive; safety protocols, gearing up, gearing down, clean up etc. Locally this has been the biggest obstacle to doing FOF vs doing other things.

I became acutely aware of this when I got certified as a Simunitions scenario instructor. I have also attended a couple of trainings with abysmal safety protocols for Sims (participants donned safety gear, but not the rest of the class observing, etc.)

Frankly, I believe that a whole lot of FOF can be better accomplished with Airsoft and blue guns, reserving Simunition for narrow, specific stuff. But that ain't so sexy.

Our rifle program taught suppression fire as part of an active shooter response.

Our rifle instructors taught measured not cyclic suppression fire. They also taught looking for solid portions of the structure to fire at.

Suppressing fire on a suspect in an open field may be one thing. Doing it in a neighborhood is another.

I attended a solo-response-to-active-shooter instructor class that included suppression fire. This was focused on ideas like shooting the light fixture above the shooter in a crowded hallway, etc. The middle school we were training in had several heavy nylon "accordion" walls between rooms, which helped to emphasize "cover v. concealment". I suppose that the floors/ceilings of a multi-story school or office building ought to be able to contain service projectiles.

As you outlined in your post, people don't want to shoot at twenty five yards. That's a training issue, not an ammunition issue and I really don't think it has anything to do with lowering standards because we "carry more ammo".

Again, just my opinion. Ultimately, *we* need to figure something out as this is not the direction our profession should be traveling in.

If they can't keep their rounds within spitting distance on a B8 at 5 yards, are they really accomplishing anything shooting at 25 yards?

[Magsz]

I think your original comments on this were a little bit off base.

It’s pretty clear in the video of the guy is not intentionally dumping magazines. His grip is causing him to unintentionally dump them. IME that and grip causing unintended slide stop activation with rounds still in the mag are common with people shooting as fast as possible for the first time or even just faster than they are used to. The ambidextrous controls on many newer pistols don’t help with this.

That goes back to the argument that the first time you try to shoot at a reactive pace shouldn’t be in a fight. Failing to train both speed and accuracy is setting people up for failure.

PS - The officer in the video is engaging a carjacking suspect dumping mags from a fully automatic weapon who just shot and wounded his partner. John Correia needs to shut the fuck up.

You can see all the body worn / vehicle camera’s from this incident without Correia running his pathetic suck hole here:

I'm trying to respond as objectively as possible. I wasn't there. I can only look at the video and respond to what is presented to me.

My wording was off base.

Let me clarify a few points.

1. By me using the phrase "Mag dumping' I meant that in two ways. First off, he was ejecting magazines out of the gun due to a bad grip. An OIS is the last possible time that you want to find out that your X5 grip doesn't fit your hands and vice versa. Or, your magwell impedes your ability to properly seat your magazines.

2. You can see the increased rate of fire compared to his partner. I can't tell who had the better angle of fire, less obscured back stop etc. There are a ton of factors that would dictate cadence of fire. I won't comment beyond that as I don't think its fair.

3. I posted the video because that was a relatively high round count OIS that fits the topic of discussion. I posted that also because it fits some of the points I made earlier regarding people thinking that their equipment will save them. I'm not saying that officer thought that but there's alot going on there. Magazine extensions, X5 grip (not sure if that's issued) etc.

4. I haven't educated myself on the back story of that particular shooting as I had originally only seen a clip of it. Good luck gaining fire superiority against an automatic weapon. That comes back to the original point. In THAT particular case, the only way to gain fire superiority was to neutralize the suspect with effective, aimed fire. Thoughts?

I hope that clarifies my points. I didn't bother listening to the narrator as I don't care what he has to say. I'd rather talk amongst peers here.

EDIT: I also have to add that my choice of words where I mentioned the fella having a staccato was not well chosen. I wasn't even right on the gun type lol. I hope my post above clarifies.

[HCM]

I'm trying to respond as objectively as possible. I wasn't there. I can only look at the video and respond to what is presented to me.

My wording was off base.

Let me clarify a few points.

1. By me using the phrase "Mag dumping' I meant that in two ways. First off, he was ejecting magazines out of the gun due to a bad grip. An OIS is the last possible time that you want to find out that your X5 grip doesn't fit your hands and vice versa. Or, your magwell impedes your ability to properly seat your magazines.

2. You can see the increased rate of fire compared to his partner. I can't tell who had the better angle of fire, less obscured back stop etc. There are a ton of factors that would dictate cadence of fire. I won't comment beyond that as I don't think its fair.

3. I posted the video because that was a relatively high round count OIS that fits the topic of discussion. I posted that also because it fits some of the points I made earlier regarding people thinking that their equipment will save them. I'm not saying that officer thought that but there's alot going on there. Magazine extensions, X5 grip (not sure if that's issued) etc.

4. I haven't educated myself on the back story of that particular shooting as I had originally only seen a clip of it. Good luck gaining fire superiority against an automatic weapon. That comes back to the original point. In THAT particular case, the only way to gain fire superiority was to neutralize the suspect with effective, aimed fire. Thoughts?

I hope that clarifies my points. I didn't bother listening to the narrator as I don't care what he has to say. I'd rather talk amongst peers here.

EDIT: I also have to add that my choice of words where I mentioned the fella having a staccato was not well chosen. I wasn't even right on the gun type lol. I hope my post above clarifies.

The clip I posted with the body worn camera from all the officers at the initial shooting and some of the body worn camera from swat when the guy barricaded in his house paints a better picture of what’s going on.

That particular suspect was an example of “it’s better to be lucky than good.”

I agree that the middle of a gun fight is no time to find out your new blaster doesn’t work with your grip. This is why they need to at least experience .25 ish splits. We recently ran the doubles drill leading into Bill drills with the end goal of getting everyone to shoot a 3 second bill drill. A three second bill drill is not very impressive among “shooters” but for my regular/ non enthusiast LEOs a 1.5 second draw and .25 splits is twice as fast as they are used to shooting. As such is helps highlight issues that don’t appear shooting at a more relaxed pace.

Stress testing your gear is important. I watched an experienced shooter I know spend two days in an MSP class unintentionally dumping mags from his new Stacatto - an issue he’d never really experienced with Glocks or M&Ps.

For reference in my agency the fastest shooting in our qual is reactive / about .5 splits.

[BK14]

We have taught the concept in the past. I remember around 2008 or so doing a bunch of training with an "Australian peel." Is there potentially a time and a place for it? Maybe.

We work in places where people live, where they work, where they go to school, where they wait for the bus, etc. Our shootings often occur in these areas right?

When shooting starts, people's homes, schools, businesses, and churches are often in our backdrop.

Keep in mind that this is the world we live in:
https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/l...store/3040509/

Suppressing fire on a suspect in an open field may be one thing. Doing it in a neighborhood is another.

...and remember, if you teach someone to do something, some will likely do it. Even if it not the appropriate thing to do in that setting.

So I would be cautious with instructing those tactics. Just saying. Because you or me may be the supervisor shitting the brick someday depending on where and how it is deployed.

Yup, unfortunately I’m in the same circuit court as you and that article. That said, proper application and implementation of a tactic like focused fire is used in an extreme circumstance, and when used right, shouldn’t be putting the public in anymore risk than the circumstances that are already being presented by the suspect. I’m strongly against baby with bath water situations, as that’s how we’ve lost a lot of good things. Just off the cuff, so maybe I’m missing things, but it seems like that Officer mistook an assault with a bike lock for an active shooter, thought that an impact weapon was a gun, thought changing rooms were a brick wall (seemingly indicating that he didn’t think he needed as strict of round accountability?), didn’t hold himself to an accountable split pace despite being a rifle operator (its drilled into our guys that our rounds over penetrate barriers) and pushing the pace into a rapid response dynamic. Shitty situation, sucks he may be getting charged, but that doesn’t negate the potential need for a properly applied good tactic.


To your point, depending on who and how it was being trained, and how it was being implemented, sure I’d be worried if I was supervisor. . I’m not a rifle instructor, I don’t formally teach the tactic, but I have attended and assisted with schools that teach it. Teaching the context, application, and proper targeting is required. Which I think my agency does very well. Like I said, the tactic isn’t used often, but it was used successfully a handful of times with my agency.


I realize this is a tangent from your original post. This is just a portion of where my head went in my personal articulation for now many rounds I carry.

[KevH]

Yup, unfortunately I’m in the same circuit court as you and that article. That said, proper application and implementation of a tactic like focused fire is used in an extreme circumstance, and when used right, shouldn’t be putting the public in anymore risk than the circumstances that are already being presented by the suspect. I’m strongly against baby with bath water situations, as that’s how we’ve lost a lot of good things. Just off the cuff, so maybe I’m missing things, but it seems like that Officer mistook an assault with a bike lock for an active shooter, thought that an impact weapon was a gun, thought changing rooms were a brick wall (seemingly indicating that he didn’t think he needed as strict of round accountability?), didn’t hold himself to an accountable split pace despite being a rifle operator (its drilled into our guys that our rounds over penetrate barriers) and pushing the pace into a rapid response dynamic. Shitty situation, sucks he may be getting charged, but that doesn’t negate the potential need for a properly applied good tactic.


To your point, depending on who and how it was being trained, and how it was being implemented, sure I’d be worried if I was supervisor. . I’m not a rifle instructor, I don’t formally teach the tactic, but I have attended and assisted with schools that teach it. Teaching the context, application, and proper targeting is required. Which I think my agency does very well. Like I said, the tactic isn’t used often, but it was used successfully a handful of times with my agency.


I realize this is a tangent from your original post. This is just a portion of where my head went in my personal articulation for now many rounds I carry.

I reflect on an incident that occurred at my own department about fifteen years ago.

A mentally disturbed man had gone a bit wiggity-wack in his second story apartment had been seen walking around outside his apartment (second story landing) with a pistol. Officers arrive on scene and he points the pistol at the officers who are at the bottom of the stair case which causes three officers to fire at him pretty much simultaneously.
- Officer A, a former USMC 0311 who served in Iraq fires fires a couple rounds of 40 S&W which strike the guy.
- Officer B, a veteran officer fires a MP5N on three-round burst striking the guy.
- Officer C, who is not a very good shot, fires several rounds of 40 S&W which miss our suspect completely and go into the backdrop, which is another apartment that is unassociated with the mentally disturbed man.

Maybe you see where I'm going with this story.

Of course, as you may have guessed, a nice young family lived in the backdrop apartment and were home at the time including a young girl the same age as Officer A's daughter.

Thankfully, no one except the pistol-pointer was hit by gunfire, but the family easily could have been. Neither Officer B or C were really affected by this incident (if they read this someday and disagree then sorry). It did affect Officer A. I remember talking to him quite a bit about a year or so after the incident and he told me how different shooting someone stateside was than shooting someone in Iraq. 99% of this focus was on the girl in the apartment and what could have (but thankfully did not) happen. You could tell it truly bothered him to the core.

I tell this story because when I first watched the LAPD video it the first thing that I thought about. It is also what I think about when I see videos of cops semi-carelessly emptying their mags or when I hear conversations about suppressive/directed/whatever-the-trendy-thing-is-to-call-it fire in a police setting.

We have to be responsible for every single round that leaves our barrels.

If we teach our people either bad or wrong tactics, no matter how well intended, and as a result they kill an innocent, then we are part of the problem.

[BK14]

I reflect on an incident that occurred at my own department about fifteen years ago.

A mentally disturbed man had gone a bit wiggity-wack in his second story apartment had been seen walking around outside his apartment (second story landing) with a pistol. Officers arrive on scene and he points the pistol at the officers who are at the bottom of the stair case which causes three officers to fire at him pretty much simultaneously.
- Officer A, a former USMC 0311 who served in Iraq fires fires a couple rounds of 40 S&W which strike the guy.
- Officer B, a veteran officer fires a MP5N on three-round burst striking the guy.
- Officer C, who is not a very good shot, fires several rounds of 40 S&W which miss our suspect completely and go into the backdrop, which is another apartment that is unassociated with the mentally disturbed man.

Maybe you see where I'm going with this story.

Of course, as you may have guessed, a nice young family lived in the backdrop apartment and were home at the time including a young girl the same age as Officer A's daughter.

Thankfully, no one except the pistol-pointer was hit by gunfire, but the family easily could have been. Neither Officer B or C were really affected by this incident (if they read this someday and disagree then sorry). It did affect Officer A. I remember talking to him quite a bit about a year or so after the incident and he told me how different shooting someone stateside was than shooting someone in Iraq. 99% of this focus was on the girl in the apartment and what could have (but thankfully did not) happen. You could tell it truly bothered him to the core.

I tell this story because when I first watched the LAPD video it the first thing that I thought about. It is also what I think about when I see videos of cops semi-carelessly emptying their mags or when I hear conversations about suppressive/directed/whatever-the-trendy-thing-is-to-call-it fire in a police setting.

We have to be responsible for every single round that leaves our barrels.

If we teach our people either bad or wrong tactics, no matter how well intended, and as a result they kill an innocent, then we are part of the problem.

I’m right there with you. Regardless of the social climate, the need for round accountability is very high in my mind, as well as the teams I work in and around. I really don’t know how to get the masses to think and process more, and be more accountable for their rounds. Even simple things like changing angles for high-risk stops to not be pointing a gun at people in the backdrop goes right over some people’s heads.

I’m not going to discuss the details of the focused fire situations, as some are still open, and some would be easily identified as my agency. But if you ever want to get into more details or specifics of tactics let me know.

[Hambo]

and remember, if you teach someone to do something, some will likely do it. Even if it not the appropriate thing to do in that setting.

Oh, hell yes, they will. Just because you know and understand how/when something should be done, doesn't mean you can imagine what the biggest retard in your department will do with this new skill.