Deep thoughts on LE loadout these days

[HCM]

Then they'd have to spend money on quality trainers/training, do a lot of FoF, and emphasize skill maintenance. None of that is going to happen with low recruiting/retention.

Gear and even hiring quality outside trainers is relatively cheap - the real monetary obstacle is the cost of man hours.

Coverage is also a thing.

Let’s say you want to pay overtime for coverage to give everyone one extra eight hour day of extra training on regular time.

You have a 70 man dept and your officers make $70,000 a year. That’s $33.63 an hour or about $269 per day.

You’ve got to pay OT at $50.45 for coverage for the 20 officers: $403 per OT officer per day.

Whether you pay the officers to train on OT or you pay someone OT to cover for them an extra 8 hour training day for 70 officers is over $28,000.

FOF is valuable but particularly time intensive; safety protocols, gearing up, gearing down, clean up etc. Locally this has been the biggest obstacle to doing FOF vs doing other things.

[HCM]

While I agree with the overall issue, of Officers focusing on volume of fire, versus quality hits at a reasonable pace, I don’t think the issue can be narrowed down to capacity.

I currently carry 3 extended mags as reloads. Two on my belt, one on my vest, and one in the gun, all with 20+ rounds. I’ve considered dropping one on my belt, but I use it for matches and training sometimes, so I’d regret ditching the second mag. When I did carry a single stack 1911, I carried a four mags on my belt (3-4 support side, one right behind the gun) and two on my vest.

When I was more heavily invested in competition earlier in my career and before, my “hit factor” I matches was trash, regardless of with a 23 round mag, or my single stack mag. Once I trained more, and more importantly controlled my mental part of the game, my hit factor increased, regardless of the platform.

I’ve seen plenty of videos of Officers with reduced capacity guns going cyclic, and have personally witnessed multiple shootings where officers carrying extended magazines fired in a controlled, and responsible manner. I’ve mentioned it before, but one example I’m aware of, an officer’s first shooting was with standard 17 round magazines, the second, he’d bought Taran extensions. The first, was cyclic without effective hits, the second was controlled, with 100% round accountability (all three shooters on the second incident had extended magazines, and had 100% hit rate….). However, a big difference between the two for the one officer, were multiple conversations about mindset of pace, and training done emphasizing accuracy, fast.

Locally, there have been multiple incidents that utilized “suppression fire” to support bounding out of positions while taking effective fire from the bad guy. Society isn’t getting better.

I think that a lot more of this goes back to mindset and training. If someone is too mentally weak, to guarantee their hits without being driven by the fear in the back of their mind that their gun doesn’t have many rounds in it, then I think that’s a failure in selection and training. At a minimum skill level, the knowledge of more or less rounds on board could change how someone makes decisions, I don’t think that’s what should inform those decisions. I don’t think a skilled, competent, mentally prepared officer, that can control their emotions would have any dis-advantage besides the weight penalty, in carrying extended high-capacity reloads.

But that’s just my opinion.

Agreed. Suppression fire is a good reason to have lots of ammo immediately available.

As has been mentioned, large capacity magazines are not the problem. How the ammo is used is the problem and that's a serious training issue.

You both bring up a really good point regarding suppressing fire (which some now refer to as “directed” fire for both legal and political reasons).

I can think of two examples where suppressive fire was used effectively in police gun fights. Unfortunately, in both examples, it was used successfully by bad guys two flank and kill officers who are behind cover. .

The infamous Kyle Dinkheller shooting and the Officer killed while taking cover behind the columns during the Dallas police domestic terrorist attack in 2016.



It’s one of those aspects of how shooting / marksmanship and “fighting with a gun” differ.

[Coyotesfan97]

While I agree with the overall issue, of Officers focusing on volume of fire, versus quality hits at a reasonable pace, I don’t think the issue can be narrowed down to capacity.

I currently carry 3 extended mags as reloads. Two on my belt, one on my vest, and one in the gun, all with 20+ rounds. I’ve considered dropping one on my belt, but I use it for matches and training sometimes, so I’d regret ditching the second mag. When I did carry a single stack 1911, I carried a four mags on my belt (3-4 support side, one right behind the gun) and two on my vest.

When I was more heavily invested in competition earlier in my career and before, my “hit factor” I matches was trash, regardless of with a 23 round mag, or my single stack mag. Once I trained more, and more importantly controlled my mental part of the game, my hit factor increased, regardless of the platform.

I’ve seen plenty of videos of Officers with reduced capacity guns going cyclic, and have personally witnessed multiple shootings where officers carrying extended magazines fired in a controlled, and responsible manner. I’ve mentioned it before, but one example I’m aware of, an officer’s first shooting was with standard 17 round magazines, the second, he’d bought Taran extensions. The first, was cyclic without effective hits, the second was controlled, with 100% round accountability (all three shooters on the second incident had extended magazines, and had 100% hit rate….). However, a big difference between the two for the one officer, were multiple conversations about mindset of pace, and training done emphasizing accuracy, fast.

Locally, there have been multiple incidents that utilized “suppression fire” to support bounding out of positions while taking effective fire from the bad guy. Society isn’t getting better.

I think that a lot more of this goes back to mindset and training. If someone is too mentally weak, to guarantee their hits without being driven by the fear in the back of their mind that their gun doesn’t have many rounds in it, then I think that’s a failure in selection and training. At a minimum skill level, the knowledge of more or less rounds on board could change how someone makes decisions, I don’t think that’s what should inform those decisions. I don’t think a skilled, competent, mentally prepared officer, that can control their emotions would have any dis-advantage besides the weight penalty, in carrying extended high-capacity reloads.

But that’s just my opinion.

Agreed. Suppression fire is a good reason to have lots of ammo immediately available.

As has been mentioned, large capacity magazines are not the problem. How the ammo is used is the problem and that's a serious training issue.

Our rifle program taught suppression fire as part of an active shooter response. We also trained in bounding overwatch forwards and back using live ammunition. Nothing too crazy but it was good stuff. It was training specifically for taking fire as you moved up to the structure where you had to get into the building and stop the threats

We also had a pack of six magazines issued to us for active shooter situations. Our rifle instructors taught measured not cyclic suppression fire. They also taught looking for solid portions of the structure to fire at. They emphasized it doesn’t do any good to use suppression fire if you wind up at the structure without any rifle ammunition left.

[Hambo]

Gear and even hiring quality outside trainers is relatively cheap - the real monetary obstacle is the cost of man hours.

Coverage is also a thing.

Let’s say you want to pay overtime for coverage to give everyone one extra eight hour day of extra training on regular time.

You have a 70 man dept and your officers make $70,000 a year. That’s $33.63 an hour or about $269 per day.

You’ve got to pay OT at $50.45 for coverage for the 20 officers: $403 per OT officer per day.

Whether you pay the officers to train on OT or you pay someone OT to cover for them an extra 8 hour training day for 70 officers is over $28,000.

FOF is valuable but particularly time intensive; safety protocols, gearing up, gearing down, clean up etc. Locally this has been the biggest obstacle to doing FOF vs doing other things.

I could go into a lot of number crunching, but I found that the city had the money to pay for whatever it wanted to. City government didn't prioritize safety forces in general, and the police chief gave zero fucks. They all rolled the dice that million dollar lawsuit payouts would average out to be less than an increased training budget, then cried a river when they had to pay one.

[Magsz]

@Magsz

I'm making the point that as capacity has increased exponentially (and like @BehindBlueI's pointed out we have low recoil and much lighter/easier triggers) that emphasis on accuracy, round accountability, and target assessment/tactical pause has dropped. I'm arguing that so much emphasis on capacity and the number of rounds carried on the person has escalated to the point where other important factors are being overlooked (like basic marksmanship).

@jnc36rcpd

I by no means am advocating we go back to revolvers (although I don't point and laugh at those that do...there was a guy at a neighboring agency that could run his 625 very fast and efficiently although I think he's retired now). I'm also not saying that everyone needs to go back to single stacks.

What I am saying is that those of us that put an extreme value on proficiency and marksmanship don't need two boxes worth of pistol ammo attached to our person at all times and that I believe, based on what I've witnessed in just the past few years, we have seen a shift in our profession to more value being placed on the ability to throw the maximum amount of lead as fast as we can, without placing proper value on its efficiency of use.

Is there such a thing as having too much ammo on your person? Maybe or maybe not. But it is worth having the discussion. Perhaps when you look at the psychology of the Law of Scarcity excess of something is a bad thing.

In an era where we are more accountable for every round fired than ever before, where we are constantly scrutinized, our people are somehow getting the false impression that they need to throw as much ammo as possible as fast as they can.

I ultimately think that's a very dangerous place to be.

We definitely agree on the issue. I disagree on the cause.

As outlined in my prior post. We have a ton of REALLY bad training going on. We have people that cant differentiate between how to build speed, how to build accuracy and how to combine both of them to produce a complete fundamental skill set. The red shirts at my institution are teaching pistol hold over at five yards....The size of the dot completely covers the target...................sigh. (sorry, didn't mean to get off topic).

I carry 58 rounds of 9mm on me. I have thought about carrying a fourth magazine. I only add one to my gear when I am the shield bearer for one handed reloads as its hard for me to access my magazines cross body due to all of the shit that I wear plus the shield.

I am a product of push until you're no longer adhering to your accuracy standard. Assess, figure out why. Push at 100% until you can repeat the standard 100% of the time then push to fail again. Repeat the process. The issue is that I bet if you and I sat down our standards would far exceed the standards of most. As you outlined in your post, people don't want to shoot at twenty five yards. That's a training issue, not an ammunition issue and I really don't think it has anything to do with lowering standards because we "carry more ammo".

Again, just my opinion. Ultimately, *we* need to figure something out as this is not the direction our profession should be traveling in.

Did you see the video of the one fella with the Staccato P that has no clue how to operate his gun and just dumps rounds and magazines all over the place like its a loot drop in a video game? I can find the video if you'd like to see it. It's horrid. I guarantee that guy was amazed at how *fast* he could shoot his staccato completely bypassing everything else that we would consider important. I'm assuming quite a bit there but i'm sure everyone in this thread has seen that.

[BK14]

Did you see the video of the one fella with the Staccato P that has no clue how to operate his gun and just dumps rounds and magazines all over the place like its a loot drop in a video game? I can find the video if you'd like to see it. It's horrid. I guarantee that guy was amazed at how *fast* he could shoot his staccato completely bypassing everything else that we would consider important. I'm assuming quite a bit there but i'm sure everyone in this thread has seen that.

I’m not sure which one you’re referring to, but I’d like to see it if you can find it.

[BK14]

Our rifle program taught suppression fire as part of an active shooter response. We also trained in bounding overwatch forwards and back using live ammunition. Nothing too crazy but it was good stuff. It was training specifically for taking fire as you moved up to the structure where you had to get into the building and stop the threats

We also had a pack of six magazines issued to us for active shooter situations. Our rifle instructors taught measured not cyclic suppression fire. They also taught looking for solid portions of the structure to fire at. They emphasized it doesn’t do any good to use suppression fire if you wind up at the structure without any rifle ammunition left.

They’ve been stepping it up a little too. In 2nd quarter, they included bounding laterally and a simulated entry into a structure at the end of the bounding. They’ve been saying it for a couple years, but they’re trying to drag out all of patrol to learn about bounding for downed officer rescue training. Outside of specialized areas, I think most supervisors would shit a brick if they heard officers using suppression/directed/focused/whatever fire. So the exposure to a larger part of the department is critical.

I think one of the keys to the successful rifle program, and our firearms program as a whole, is an effective balance in speed and accuracy.

You both bring up a really good point regarding suppressing fire (which some now refer to as “directed” fire for both legal and political reasons).

(Snip)

It’s one of those aspects of how shooting / marksmanship and “fighting with a gun” differ.

We’re fortunate to train the tactic annually, with specialized units training variations more regularly.

Obviously there are other reasons to carry extended magazines, easier control on manipulations, easier to seat, seats with magwells, stripping malfunctions, drops free easier, potentially less to think about on ammo management post shooting, etc.

While I don’t base everything I do on outlier events, I’ve had enough teammates and other local officers that have directly been in those type of events. I already wear plates when I’m geared up, the minimal extra weight of a few extra rounds isn’t what’s going to wreck my back anyways 🥲

[Magsz]

I’m not sure which one you’re referring to, but I’d like to see it if you can find it.

There's quite a bit of extra commentary. The video of the OIS is in the beginning of the video. I apologize, this was a P320, not a Staccato. I THINK there may be another video similar to this but this was the first one that I could find. The same point still stands.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14dV2tEmAds

[HCM]

There's quite a bit of extra commentary. The video of the OIS is in the beginning of the video. I apologize, this was a P320, not a Staccato. I THINK there may be another video similar to this but this was the first one that I could find. The same point still stands.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14dV2tEmAds

I think your original comments on this were a little bit off base.

It’s pretty clear in the video of the guy is not intentionally dumping magazines. His grip is causing him to unintentionally dump them. IME that and grip causing unintended slide stop activation with rounds still in the mag are common with people shooting as fast as possible for the first time or even just faster than they are used to. The ambidextrous controls on many newer pistols don’t help with this.

That goes back to the argument that the first time you try to shoot at a reactive pace shouldn’t be in a fight. Failing to train both speed and accuracy is setting people up for failure.

PS - The officer in the video is engaging a carjacking suspect dumping mags from a fully automatic weapon who just shot and wounded his partner. John Correia needs to shut the fuck up.

You can see all the body worn / vehicle camera’s from this incident without Correia running his pathetic suck hole here:

[KevH]

I think your original comments on this were a little bit off base.

It’s pretty clear in the video of the guy is not intentionally dumping magazines. His grip is causing him to unintentionally dump them. IME that and grip causing unintended slide stop activation with rounds still in the mag are common with people shooting as fast as possible for the first time or even just faster than they are used to. The ambidextrous controls on many newer pistols don’t help with this.

That goes back to the argument that the first time you try to shoot at a reactive pace shouldn’t be in a fight. Failing to train both speed and accuracy is setting people up for failure.

PS - The officer in the video is engaging a carjacking suspect dumping mags from a fully automatic weapon who just shot and wounded his partner. John Correia needs to shut the fuck up.

You can see all the body worn / vehicle camera’s from this incident without Correia running his pathetic suck hole here:

I can't stand watching the Correia commentary videos. It's too much.

@HCM is spot on with his assessment. The gun has nothing to do with mags falling out. The "OH SHIT WE'RE GUNNA DIE!!!!" dump of cortisol into the officer's system is causing him to grip the gun differently and eject mags.

No matter how hard you train you will always see shooter-induced malfunctions during real events. It's inevitable. What we need to do is teach officers to expect them and how to work through them when they occur.

You can never truly replicate combat stress, but you can replicate it "a little bit." Some places used to have cops run around the range. All that does is make them tired. To correctly do it you need to create a degree of panic which typically involves a timer and someone chipping away in their ear. You are introducing psychological stress factors which induce a physiological response.

It takes work for the instructors, it's hard on the students, and people tend to get their feelings hurt. Lots of departments are either too lazy, just don't know how to do it, or someone complains and then they stop.

So most places just skip doing it which ultimately does no one any favors.