Deep thoughts on LE loadout these days

[KevH]

I’ve been mulling over posting something about this and have until now refrained, but a thread on another forum I frequent and some recent observations watching freshly graduated police academy kids is prompting me to stir the pot. It’s a long post so buckle up.

When I became a police cadet back in the end of the 1990’s, there were still a few officers (all Vietnam vets to give age perspective) who were carrying revolvers on uniformed patrol every day. Typically they carried two extra speed loaders or full moon clips. Their common loadout was 6+6+6= 18 rounds.

By far, the most common loadout in my county (San Francisco East Bay) when I started in the early 2000’s was a single stack 45 ACP handgun (1911, SIG P220, or S&W 4506-1) and the officer carrying two extra mags on the belt. This loadout was 8+8+8+1=25 rounds. This was well over 70% of the city cops around here.

The second most common loadout locally was typically a Beretta 92 or S&W 5906 (our sheriff’s office) in 9mm or a Glock 22 in 40 S&W each which held 15 rounds and the officer would carry two extra mags for 15+15+15+1=46 rounds.

Finally, the third most common was the Beretta 96 (a couple small PD’s and some personally owned guns) or S&W 4006 (CHP) which each carried 11 rounds in the mag and was typically carried with one on the gun and two on the belt for 11+11+11+1=34 rounds.

I’d like to note that no one carrying any of these loadouts, whether 18 rounds, 25, 33 or 46, ever complained of being under-armed or having too little ammo in my recollection.

Over time load outs grew a little. “Quad” mag pouches for single stacks became a big thing around 2010 and as 9mm caught on most standard mags increased to 17 round capacity.

Fast forward to today when I commonly see three 21 or 22 round mags on a belt or external carrier with another in the gun. This is 85 rounds (or more) of 9mm on their person.

My initial thoughts on this have been “that’s a lot of weight I wouldn’t care to carry around,” and “hey, you do you, not needed, but if it makes you feel better cool.” But are there downsides to this much ammo?

This thread, as well as some personal experience, really started me thinking about it:
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....sessment-pause

I made this comment in that thread:

“When someone is trying to kill you (or you think someone is trying to kill you) it is very easy to floor the accelerator and very hard to hit to brakes fast enough.

Hours later, when asked how many rounds you fired, you may think three or four, but more often than not your magazine may tell a much different story.”

I stand by that statement.

This is totally anecdotal, but as I have seen the capacity of the magazine increase, I have seen split times decrease, and I have seen the emphasis on making accurate shots decrease as well, regardless of irons or optics. Correlation? Perhaps.

I have had to fight and argue to keep the six 25 yard shots in our annual 36 round duty qual. There are quite a few in my department that only want 15 yards and in because “speed is what really matters.” My counter argument has been “it only counts if it hits what it needs to.”

I also within the last few years had an argument with another senior firearms instructor during an instructor development day who was pushing everyone to shoot fast and he told me I wasn’t shooting fast enough and wasn’t “pushing it.” My splits were around .25 second and my group was the size of a fist from 7 yards. His argument was my group was too tight and if I wasn’t so nitpicky on accuracy I could be so much faster. Dude…

I recently sent one of our younger “good shooter” officers to the same police firearms instructor school I went through. The first day they make you shoot 25 yard NRA Bullseye on a B-16 (slowfire). I remember me and the other guy with me from my department back then both shooting our 45 ACP 1911’s with irons passed it easy peasy on the first attempt. Our young guy today with his X5 Legion with optic and 21 round mags had a hell of a time. He relayed to me after the course how he thought it was ridiculous to have to shoot that and…you know…speed matters. Houston, we have a problem…

I started carrying a Gen3 Glock 17 for dog-handler reasons back in 2014 and switched to a Gen5 Glock 19 MOS a year ago, but still stay qualified on a 1911 and carry it occasionally. I attended an academy graduation a couple weeks ago wearing the 1911 which led to conversation with a newbie of “how are you comfortable with that” and “aren’t you afraid of running out of ammo?” Comfortable? Very…and no, no I’m not.

Not that I’ve done this (wink-wink), but put two decent shooters on plate racks. One with the old 25 round single stack loadout and one with the “lots of ammo” loadout and don’t give them any rules except for knock the plates down as fast as you can. I guarantee you the single stack guy will always have slower splits, but will have less rounds shot with more hits. Very often, he or she is actually faster (sometimes significantly so) to knock down all the plates than the “faster” shooter.

Now let’s apply this exercise to real life in an OIS. Who would you want in an OIS? Which one is most defensible in court and in the court of public opinion and media scrutiny? The person that fired lots of rounds really fast or the person that fired fewer rounds slightly slower, but made his or her hits count?

The counter argument is always the one-off like the Timothy Gramins OIS (officer with a Glock 21, expends all three mags and almost out of ammo and now carries an excessive amount of 9mm). In most articles/interviews with him he’s quoted as saying, “Then I told myself, ‘Hey, I need to slow down and aim better.’" Well, there you go.

I’m not sure if it’s because they’re just available or John Wick or what, but more than three of the 20+ round mags is definitely the thing right now, I’ve formed the personal opinion that it isn’t a good thing. Anecdotally, it seems the byproduct is more rounds fired and a degradation of accuracy.

I’m seriously thinking of switching back to the 1911 with the old loadout for myself, because when I’m honest with myself, do I need anything else right now?

[blues]

I've carried revolvers and semi-autos as an 1811 for the feds. I think I was a better shooter with revolvers with quals out to 25 yards...with a Model 19 or Model 15...and not far behind with a Model 36.

I probably shot my best quals with semi-autos with either a Gov't Model (Series 70) or a third generation S&W double action only. I've never been quite as good with the Glocks, though I do prefer them.

Your post reminds me of an argument I had with our firearms instructor, Seth Nadel, at the Customs academy in Marana, AZ back in late 1987 or early 1988.

He complained to me that I would have shot a perfect score on the course, (with a S&W Model 19 as I recall), if I had just taken my time more at 25 yards. He was really upset with me. And I argued back to him that I was always the first one on the line to break leather and get my shots off. To me, that meant I had a better chance of winning the gunfight.

I guess there is some level of "good enough" at a given speed. I'm not exactly sure how to qualify it. (Pun intended.)

Enjoyed the post. (I wish that Uncle Sam had given me the option to buy that Gov't model...but alas.)

[AMC]

Saw the beginnings of this at my old place too. The 4-5 spare magazines, the extended magazines (more understandable when the issued ones were 12's, but still). Big thing now is carrying 2 mags on the belt, and 2 more on the outer vest carrier. Pointing out in training that if you need this much pistol ammo, you shouldn't be trying to solve the problem with a handgun....generally fell on disbelieving ears.

I routinely see cops carrying either factory 21 round 320 mags, or the even more common Glock mags with Taran Tactical extensions. And usually in a triple pouch on the belt. Not everyone, for certain, but definitely common. Personally, I think the cool-guy cosplay thing is in effect, as well as a misplaced sense of priorities. When I was limited to 11 round .40 Beretta 96 mags, I didn't think I needed more mags. I thought I needed to get much better at shooting.

[RevolverJIM]

You may have referred to the question that I asked on that other site: How many magazines?

The reason that the question was asked is my concern about the very same thought that you seem to have.

https://www.police1.com/officer-shoo...RLJNHxJJ4SvA5/

I don't have nearly enough information to even begin to understand this event!

As Bill Jordan said, "Speed is fine, accuracy is FINAL!"

I amend his comment thusly: "Capacity is fine, accuracy is FINAL!"

[HCM]

I’ve been mulling over posting something about this and have until now refrained, but a thread on another forum I frequent and some recent observations watching freshly graduated police academy kids is prompting me to stir the pot. It’s a long post so buckle up.

When I became a police cadet back in the end of the 1990’s, there were still a few officers (all Vietnam vets to give age perspective) who were carrying revolvers on uniformed patrol every day. Typically they carried two extra speed loaders or full moon clips. Their common loadout was 6+6+6= 18 rounds.

By far, the most common loadout in my county (San Francisco East Bay) when I started in the early 2000’s was a single stack 45 ACP handgun (1911, SIG P220, or S&W 4506-1) and the officer carrying two extra mags on the belt. This loadout was 8+8+8+1=25 rounds. This was well over 70% of the city cops around here.

The second most common loadout locally was typically a Beretta 92 or S&W 5906 (our sheriff’s office) in 9mm or a Glock 22 in 40 S&W each which held 15 rounds and the officer would carry two extra mags for 15+15+15+1=46 rounds.

Finally, the third most common was the Beretta 96 (a couple small PD’s and some personally owned guns) or S&W 4006 (CHP) which each carried 11 rounds in the mag and was typically carried with one on the gun and two on the belt for 11+11+11+1=34 rounds.

I’d like to note that no one carrying any of these loadouts, whether 18 rounds, 25, 33 or 46, ever complained of being under-armed or having too little ammo in my recollection.

Over time load outs grew a little. “Quad” mag pouches for single stacks became a big thing around 2010 and as 9mm caught on most standard mags increased to 17 round capacity.

Fast forward to today when I commonly see three 21 or 22 round mags on a belt or external carrier with another in the gun. This is 85 rounds (or more) of 9mm on their person.

My initial thoughts on this have been “that’s a lot of weight I wouldn’t care to carry around,” and “hey, you do you, not needed, but if it makes you feel better cool.” But are there downsides to this much ammo?

This thread, as well as some personal experience, really started me thinking about it:
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....sessment-pause

I made this comment in that thread:

“When someone is trying to kill you (or you think someone is trying to kill you) it is very easy to floor the accelerator and very hard to hit to brakes fast enough.

Hours later, when asked how many rounds you fired, you may think three or four, but more often than not your magazine may tell a much different story.”

I stand by that statement.

This is totally anecdotal, but as I have seen the capacity of the magazine increase, I have seen split times decrease, and I have seen the emphasis on making accurate shots decrease as well, regardless of irons or optics. Correlation? Perhaps.

I have had to fight and argue to keep the six 25 yard shots in our annual 36 round duty qual. There are quite a few in my department that only want 15 yards and in because “speed is what really matters.” My counter argument has been “it only counts if it hits what it needs to.”

I also within the last few years had an argument with another senior firearms instructor during an instructor development day who was pushing everyone to shoot fast and he told me I wasn’t shooting fast enough and wasn’t “pushing it.” My splits were around .25 second and my group was the size of a fist from 7 yards. His argument was my group was too tight and if I wasn’t so nitpicky on accuracy I could be so much faster. Dude…

I recently sent one of our younger “good shooter” officers to the same police firearms instructor school I went through. The first day they make you shoot 25 yard NRA Bullseye on a B-16 (slowfire). I remember me and the other guy with me from my department back then both shooting our 45 ACP 1911’s with irons passed it easy peasy on the first attempt. Our young guy today with his X5 Legion with optic and 21 round mags had a hell of a time. He relayed to me after the course how he thought it was ridiculous to have to shoot that and…you know…speed matters. Houston, we have a problem…

I started carrying a Gen3 Glock 17 for dog-handler reasons back in 2014 and switched to a Gen5 Glock 19 MOS a year ago, but still stay qualified on a 1911 and carry it occasionally. I attended an academy graduation a couple weeks ago wearing the 1911 which led to conversation with a newbie of “how are you comfortable with that” and “aren’t you afraid of running out of ammo?” Comfortable? Very…and no, no I’m not.

Not that I’ve done this (wink-wink), but put two decent shooters on plate racks. One with the old 25 round single stack loadout and one with the “lots of ammo” loadout and don’t give them any rules except for knock the plates down as fast as you can. I guarantee you the single stack guy will always have slower splits, but will have less rounds shot with more hits. Very often, he or she is actually faster (sometimes significantly so) to knock down all the plates than the “faster” shooter.

Now let’s apply this exercise to real life in an OIS. Who would you want in an OIS? Which one is most defensible in court and in the court of public opinion and media scrutiny? The person that fired lots of rounds really fast or the person that fired fewer rounds slightly slower, but made his or her hits count?

The counter argument is always the one-off like the Timothy Gramins OIS (officer with a Glock 21, expends all three mags and almost out of ammo and now carries an excessive amount of 9mm). In most articles/interviews with him he’s quoted as saying, “Then I told myself, ‘Hey, I need to slow down and aim better.’" Well, there you go.

I’m not sure if it’s because they’re just available or John Wick or what, but more than three of the 20+ round mags is definitely the thing right now, I’ve formed the personal opinion that it isn’t a good thing. Anecdotally, it seems the byproduct is more rounds fired and a degradation of accuracy.

I’m seriously thinking of switching back to the 1911 with the old loadout for myself, because when I’m honest with myself, do I need anything else right now?

A few thoughts as someone who also started LE in the 90s with 18 (GP-100) 22 (SIG 220) then 34 (Beretta 96D) round load outs.

Correlation is not causation. The idea that fewer rounds somehow = better accuracy is a fallacy.

The behavior by both groups is a direct result of what they train / what is emphasized in training.

If you only train accuracy at the expense of speed, you will get slow but accurate shooters, who look great in certain situations, and do poorly another situations. Training speed at the expense of accuracy results in a mirror image deficiency.

I came from a place with an unbalanced emphasis on accuracy because firearms instructor = PPC shooter.

I watched classmates who qualified well struggle in Force on Force “at the speed of life.” Then got another eye opener when I tried USPSA (with a DAO Beretta 96).

Unfortunately, instead of adopting balanced training working both speed and accuracy the trend has simply become replacing lopsided training overemphasizing accuracy with lopsided training over emphasizing speed.

You have to train both because the target / threat dictates the ratio required.

It’s one of the reasons I think it’s foolish to remove the bullseye courses of fire from Instructor courses.

To me one of the least appreciated benefits of optics equipped pistols is the ease of hitting things beyond 25 yards. IMHO
an LE optics pistol training program should include shots at 50 yards or more, even if it’s just a familiarization exercise. Locally we’ve done an annual fam fire exercise at 50 for the past decade.

Unfortunately the current state of LE firearms training in most places is deficient in both respects.

Optics aside, many places still running irons only teach hard front sight focus for all shots regardless of speed or distance, pinning triggers etc.

I recently assisted a local department (issuing Glock 17 MOS / option to buy a Holosun or ACRO) who had officers who could not draw and fire a single round to the 8 inch circle on an IDPA target at 5 yards in less than two seconds. Some could not do so in less than 2.5. 4-5 second bill drills etc. unfortunately, the same officers were not shooting single hole / fist size groups without the timer. Nor were they maxing out the 25 yards head shot drill that followed. Many of those untimed head shots were misses or wound up in the chest. These were the same ones arguing that no one would ever need to fire a pistol beyond 7 yards or an M4 beyond 15…

My guys are lucky in that we shoot quarterly and fire about 1,000 rounds per officer, per year.

Many local agencies here shoot 100 rounds once a year, never rotate duty ammo unless you get into a shooting / euthanize an animal etc.

Personally I could give up capacity and go back to 8/8/8 but I would not give up an optic.

[Chuck Whitlock]

This is totally anecdotal, but as I have seen the capacity of the magazine increase, I have seen split times decrease, and I have seen the emphasis on making accurate shots decrease as well, regardless of irons or optics. Correlation? Perhaps.

I think there may also be a (concurrent?) correlation with the change from TDA autos to (first) Glocks and other SFA pistols, and the subsequent race to "better" (shorter/easier) triggers. As always, correlation does not equal causation.

Over time load outs grew a little. “Quad” mag pouches for single stacks became a big thing around 2010 and as 9mm caught on most standard mags increased to 17 round capacity.

Fast forward to today when I commonly see three 21 or 22 round mags on a belt or external carrier with another in the gun. This is 85 rounds (or more) of 9mm on their person.

I routinely see cops carrying either factory 21 round 320 mags, or the even more common Glock mags with Taran Tactical extensions. And usually in a triple pouch on the belt. Not everyone, for certain, but definitely common.

I dallied with the triple pouch for a while. One rationale was that I used to work at smaller agencies, and was often the "lone ranger" with backup coming from afar. I had two real issues with them.

1) Minor issue: I always had more tension on the middle magazine than the outer ones, and wasn't able to balance that out.

2) Much bigger deal: The magazines are oriented 90* from how I've always...over decades...worn spare magazines. I just couldn't (and didn't see the need to) throw a different manipulation into the mix.

I’m seriously thinking of switching back to the 1911 with the old loadout for myself, because when I’m honest with myself, do I need anything else right now?

I currently do that exact thing as an investigator. In uniform.......1) I'd like to have 4 spare magazines with a single stack (DB's whole "looking for trouble" concept), and the quad mag pouches are bulkier than I like. 2) If I'm going to be rolling around in a parking lot with sumdude and get my pistol ground into the pavement, I'd rather it be the easily replaceable Wilson grip module on my P250c. 3) For some reason, the ALS mechanism on my 6360's are smooth-as-silk with a Glock or Sig, but I struggle with smooth access when it comes to a 1911. I'm not sure why that is, other than the holster having to work around the thumb safety.

[feudist]

There are "Black Swan" events where high round count shootings occur and they warp everyone's perceptions emotionally.
We still talk about Miami 1986.
In my studies, individual officers rarely run out of ammo because there's simply not enough time. Most very high round count incidents are the sum of several officers shooting, and shooting too much(the bunch fire effect) and this is then conflated with the need for an individual to be able to shoot that much.
Many(most?) officers that are killed by gunfire are killed gun in holster, mooting, well, everything about guns and marksmanship.
A few years back, we had our highest volume gunbattle in departmental history. It involved a rile armed robber who had already shot a clerk and an officer and was cornered in a parking garage. Over a hundred rounds were fired in several exchanges by 6 or 7 responding officers before the little shit was killed. No one fired more than a couple of rounds from their second mag. Before that, across 32 years we'd had a couple of 13-14 round shootings. Most were a fast burst of 3-6 and the suspect either surrendered, was incapacitated or rannoft.
I think the amount on board the gun is the most relevant metric, because that is time in the actual fight, and 2 or 3 seconds of fire is what's needed in the vast majority of cases. Reloads rarely affect the outcome.
A spare mag has value primarily for malfunction clearing and a third magazine only in the most outlier of cases.
It's hard to construct a scenario of remotely responsible gunfire where innocent life depends on the 30th round, much less the 45th or 60th.

[TGS]

I’d like to note that no one carrying any of these loadouts, whether 18 rounds, 25, 33 or 46, ever complained of being under-armed or having too little ammo in my recollection.

I think that's an awfully presumptive statement to make when American LE history can be typified by a steady trend of trying to "up-gun" in some manner.

Incidents like the depression era gang shootouts. Newhall. FBI Miami. North Hollywood. In the last 20 years, the rise of terrorism and worst case scenarios like Mumbai and Nairobi are huge inspirations to not just cops but gun owners, as well as the various worst case scenarios active shooters here like Dallas.

We wouldn't be where we are if your statement were true. We'd still be carrying a single 32 caliber revolver, maybe with some spare rounds in a pocket.

[KevH]

You may have referred to the question that I asked on that other site: How many magazines?

The reason that the question was asked is my concern about the very same thought that you seem to have.

https://www.police1.com/officer-shoo...RLJNHxJJ4SvA5/

I don't have nearly enough information to even begin to understand this event!

As Bill Jordan said, "Speed is fine, accuracy is FINAL!"

I amend his comment thusly: "Capacity is fine, accuracy is FINAL!"

I don't think this is a gun problem, so much as a decision making problem.

Watching that video as well as this one (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOOT7TTIaXw) I think Albuquerque PD needs to spend a good amount of time teaching UofF case law, decision-making, and doing good practical scenario-based training.

In the case of the two videos: Indecision > Inaction > Delay > Missed Opportunity > Poor Timing > Negative Outcome

- The guy should have never been allowed to enter the grocery store. Period. You shoot him before he goes in when you have an appropriate backdrop.

- The stabber guy gets one command, the officers communicate and the one with the best position of advantage (so bystander doesn't get shot) shoots the him

Both of those videos show a lack of comfort with decision making and a lack of understanding of the rules of engagement coming from case law. This leads to paralysis and inaction (and a lot of yelling which is typically accompanies the prior traits), which causes a delay to deal with the threat.

The delay causes a missed opportunity to shoot the suspect with the least amount of risk to officers and the public. The one guy could have been shot without the bus stop folks in the background and the grocery store guy could have been shot before entering the store (both would have been completely justified under the law).

Watching the videos most of know what is going to happen, but because our officers delayed and missed the good opportunity know the eventual event we all know will occur still happens, but is poorly timed and puts innocent lives at risk.

This then leads to to the negative outcome of an innocent bystander being shot in the once case and many lives put at risk in the other. The other outcome is negative press and bad public relations for the department.

Teach your people how to make good decisions under stress and you will have a better outcomes.

If anyone from APD (especially their training division) is here PM me. I have lots of material (CA POST approved) on how to teach this.

[Screwball]

I carry a Glock 19, with three magazines on my belt. Another magazine on my vest. And I keep an extra in my center console (along with my 9mm moonclip and 12-round LCP Max magazine).

All my magazines are 15 rounders, with that long CBP base. I’m looking into getting a +2 setup to run in the gun and checking with my F/I regarding it. While the agency says it is good to go, we are in the Boston Field Office. [emoji849]

I think it came up in another thread, but I carry that much on me because we do work in pairs at somewhat remote areas… upwards of an hour from any type of backup. And there are officers that I really don’t consider as backup that I can be paired off with (it’s sad to say, but very true). If I’m in my personal vehicle, I always have a long gun (or two) with me. We still have multiple ports that do not have long guns stationed. It has got better with new management… but I still see old school thinking that leaves my coworkers with a certain appendage in their hands.