Forgetting the safety? Age, Youth, Training?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

About the skilled failing when you don't correctly retrieve the motor programs. I recall years ago, when I lived in Oregon, there was a set of twins in the decathlon (I might have details fuzzy). They were so good that everyone thought that they would ace the Olympic trials. They were even on boxes of Wheaties as champions (a far cry from beer today - although Bruce Jenner and OJ, never mind). However, one them sailed right under the bar at the pole vault. Tried again and same - it should have been easy for him. The motor program was just not retrieved. The idea being that the motor program is stored in subcortical structures for automaticity, but fired off by the cognitive decision to act - let's jump. The retrieval can fail just like you forget a word (see my classic article on Does it pay to be Bashful - recalling the Seven Dwarfs). Stress can do this.

Sidebar, in college, the coaches all knew my dad - that was because he was a big deal NBA and CBOA basketball referee and officer. I went out to dinner with them and my Dad. One offered to teach me to pole vault! I passed on that. He was sitting there with his arm in a sling that he broke went he fell down and went boom! Coach said that I'm not like my Dad. I agreed. I was a scholar - Dad has said to me, I spent my time in athletics - YOU WILL STUDY!

Worked out, had a good career. Good discussion, folks.

[1slow]

Carried 1911 .45 late 1970s - 1990. Once I trained it in to use the safety properly no issues.

Glocks 1990 - 2012 or so , 250,000 rounds plus.

HK P30 V1 LEM Roughly 2013 - 2018, 50,000 plus rounds.


2018-2019 - now , HK USP 45 LEM. Tried cocked and locked but between arthritic thumbs and 29 years of no thumb safely, I liked LEM better.

Arthritis hindered a full hard grip with thumb on top of safety in the holster.

I was also worried that I would miss it after 29 years of no thumb safety.

[BN]

At matches and in training I've seen more issues with grip safeties than with thumb safeties, but enough of both to convince me that I don't want either on a defensive handgun.

I just remembered that I always de-activated the grip safeties on my 1911s because I couldn't get them to work every time. Now, I'm a big fan of the firing pin safeties. But 70s series 1911 and earlier didn't have them. It's a wonder we all aren't dead.

[JCN]

Spicy topic, @Glenn E. Meyer. I'm not sure this belongs in the competition subform but let's see how the discussion evolves.

See BBI's excellent sticky post on why good guys lose. Safeties are one reason.

At matches and in training I've seen more issues with grip safeties than with thumb safeties, but enough of both to convince me that I don't want either on a defensive handgun. These have included: 1) Failure to deactivate safety before trying to shoot or clear malfunctions, 2) failure to activate safety before holstering, and 3) broken safety.

Who have been the worst safety offenders? Obviously, I don't have stats but far and away kids are #1 on not using safeties correctly. New female shooters have been a close #2. Grip safeties are the most common with kids and newbie females--probably because of hand size. But thumb safeties are constantly not being taken off, and even worse not being put on prior to holstering.

I don't think advanced age has much to do with it. It's lack of experience, stress, and/or cognitive load combined with something unusual that seem to be the main causes.

I've guided my family members toward Glocks with SCDs, even though I almost always carry a TDA w/decocker only. Remembering to decock before holstering presents a similar issue to a safety. I've forgotten to decock and thumb-check exactly once in my life, and you can take that as a good or a bad thing--or both.

My wife’s hand size and grip strength makes grip safeties a no go like you said. She just doesn’t have enough margin in size and strength to get it every time.

I like DASA for carry guns but I’m okay with safeties. I train with safety off strong thumb position on all guns so it’ll hopefully be there when I need it.

I think picking guns with compatible ergos in the levers and springs of the safeties is important.

In a carry gun I like a large lever so I can’t not depress it.

I like a stiff safety spring and detent because I have accidentally bumped a safety on with my weak thumb when the safety spring and detent get worn.

It’s another reason why I like to keep a fresh carry gun without worn parts.

Good discussion.

[Elwin]

I’m not perfect and I don’t shoot as much as I want to, but since switching to 1911s for carry in late 2019 I can’t remember ever missing or forgetting the thumb safety.*

I have had grip safety issues with one gun prior to tuning it. I agree they’re more likely to cause problems, and my solution has been to tune them very aggressively. A lot of factory guns with their grip safeties left as-is out of the box are just not where they should be, which is at least part of the frequency of seeing this issue pop up.

Edit - *I did a LOT of dry fire, with safety manipulation being the main focus, as part of the switch. I do less than I should now, but that previous “boot camp” approach of “OK, I’m carrying a gun with a safety now and have to get this down by working it every day” paid off in spades. I also think it carried over well to the AR.

Edit 2 - Continuing to think about this, I at some point adopted the safety manipulation technique discussed in a thread here, where at all times besides firing the thumb is under the safety and applying upward pressure. It’s so reflexive it’s what my thumb does grabbing any pistol in any condition - I put my 1911 safeties on by accident when handling them for maintenance and modification. I think that also helps with not forgetting to take it off, at least for presentations other than draw to first shot. My thumbs are crossed when I’m riding under the safety, which for me with a semi auto is not a firing grip. The act of shooting always involves acquiring a firing grip first, which is one and the same action as taking the safety off.

[wsr]

It’s just a matter of repetition

Your trigger finger isn’t any smarter than your thumb…if you are not able to train your thumb to manipulate a safety then you are not able to train your trigger finger to stay in index

[mmc45414]

I've had it a year, shooting it almost exclusively, over 1,000 rounds to date and 20 separate range sessions.

Excellent post, Rich, I agree with all of it except, this is really just scratch the surface familiarity.
But this does support your point, it takes a lotta repetition to develop a subconscious habit, perhaps more than should be expected of a shooter who is not a goof-ball about it like many of us. Somehow many people with varied levels of training managed to disengage rifle and carbine safeties throughout the GWOT but we think it is too much to ask of pistol shooters. Maybe it is?

My crusty thing about this topic is based on coming from a time when there really were not many alternatives. And now I have almost exclusively transitioned to striker guns, but not because they lack safeties. If someone at S&W had ever shot one of their own company's 1911s with their thumb on top of the safety and had located the lever where (IMO) it needs to be, or if an aftermarket supplier (Randy Lee, are you out there?...) would come up with an alternative lever, I would retrofit all of my many (preferred) M&Ps.

Your trigger finger isn’t any smarter than your thumb…if you are not able to train your thumb to manipulate a safety then you are not able to train your trigger finger to stay in index

Perfect explanation, and this is why I am comfortable carrying a striker gun without a safety, and when off body the thing needs to stay in an effective holster.

[1Rangemaster]

I think it was @GJM who has mentioned that the more recent emergency procedures have been practiced, the quicker and smoother the response. His example, I think, was in flight training and emergencies, e.g., an engine going out on takeoff. Thinking about this, if I were to run a 1911 tomorrow, I would most probably do a few presentations and “ snaps” to include manipulating the safety. I’d also dryfire a bit with a snub nose, etc.. As I run different Glocks with dots or irons, same thing. It occurs to me I started competition with a 1911, and many don’t do that these days. So there may not be the opportunity for “the young” to gain experience. I did push the Smith DA/SA slide lever up(“off”) when I carried one in uniform.
@Glenn E. Meyer , I have a question, sir, and you may have the expertise. I have heard that performing a task in reverse, e.g, drawing a handgun,can assist in training that response. Is there a term for that, please?

[Bergeron]

Maybe it would be better if we had a word other than “safety” for that kind of me mechanical interlock. I like ‘em, abd I tried my very best to have one for my Glocks, but it was not to be.

I’m not a fan of grip safeties.

I expect new shooters with safety guns to make mistakes. I would completely agree that smaller-handed, physically weaker shooters to have the biggest issues.

[Archer1440]

About the skilled failing when you don't correctly retrieve the motor programs. I recall years ago, when I lived in Oregon, there was a set of twins in the decathlon (I might have details fuzzy). They were so good that everyone thought that they would ace the Olympic trials. They were even on boxes of Wheaties as champions (a far cry from beer today - although Bruce Jenner and OJ, never mind). However, one them sailed right under the bar at the pole vault. Tried again and same - it should have been easy for him. .

You’re probably thinking about the 1992 Reebok ad campaign with Dan O’Brien and Dave Johnson before the Barcelona Olympics. Got derailed when Dan repeatedly missed the pole vault for the Decathlon team. Classic case of overhyped expectations pushing someone out of their comfort zone.

Over 20 years of carrying a 1911 served me well for my recent USPSA LO experiments. Thumb safeties are just subconscious for me under match pressure, but there are a lot of reps behind that.