Forgetting the safety? Age, Youth, Training?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

From a discussion elsewhere based on a truthaboutguns debate on safety vs no safety guns. NDs vs screwing up the safety on the draw or picking up the gun. Of course, there are examples of each.

My question - does one see any group more likely to forget the safety on a gun on the draw. https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/in...manual-safety/

Of course, folks say it never happens to them. I've seen it at matches from practiced folks. I also had a guy forget his safety and finger and almost put a 45 ACP in my foot at a match.

Question - any views on whom is more likely to screw up the safety on the draw. The old (I don't much, very rare), the young without practice? Under real world extreme stress as the article argues?

The OMG, it don't shoot and here comes the bad guy vs. OMG, I done shot myself (because you ain't professional). Not counting the gun decides to shoot you on its own (320 debate - oops!).

[FNFAN]

Interesting topic. I can tell you that transitioning back to 1911/2011 guns after a decade of Glocks has been an eye opener for me. I've been sticking to Steel Challenge matches until I get re-accustomed to proper safety manipulation at a level I'm totally comfortable with before shooting any shoot & move games. Lots of dry fire, draw strokes and a great deal of moving in and out of rooms should get me comfy. Luckily I've got pretty good trigger finger awareness. I don't know that age has as much to do with things as does repetition, but that's probably something you could expect and 'oldude to say.

I got to see a guy give himself a .45 cal sub-dermal tunnel in his right butt cheek at a Vegas IDPA match a long time ago and I'm not going to be 'that guy." (His statement after the fact was 'Oh she's gonna kick my ass' -His wife was a charge nurse at the closest hospitals E.R.)

[MVS]

As a medium old guy (54) I don't see age having anything to do with it. However, looking back, when I used to attend a lot of classes it never failed that at almost every one someone would miss a safety and I guess it was mostly older guys. I attribute that to the fact that back then it was mostly only older guys running 191s. Now with 2011s there are a lot of young people running them but I haven't been to near as many classes lately. I do see people forget in matches occasionally but haven't really noticed age. My guess is it is just lack of practice.

As for myself with going to Staccato I haven't had any issues but I think there are two main reasons for this. Dry practice is my good friend, and I use the safety religiously on my AR and I think that mentality carries over.

[BN]

Training. You need repetitions to be able to handle the safety automatically.

I'm about your age, Glenn. I learned on 1911s a long time ago and shot them a lot. My thumb automatically removes the safety when the gun comes on target and re-applies it when the gun comes off target.

Some guns have the controls in the wrong place for me and I know that I can't operate them correctly.

I carry a revolver to solve the problem.

But you need repetitions to be safe.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Yeah, I've shot a 1911 at times for 15 years or so. I dry fire quite a few times before a match to refresh the motor memory. Seems to work. However, I don't carry it for EDC. That's Glock or a J frame for pocket dress days.

[mmc45414]

The age aspect of this could have several factors.

Are old guys missing a safety because they have not shot all that much but have a 1911 because of Two World Wars! and they perceive themselves to be Old School and that is how they perceive themselves, as someone who should be carrying a 1911? Are old guys hitting the safety because they are old, and consequently have a lotta repetitions?

Are young guys, who (mostly) also have a lotta repetitions on ARs so conditioned that (mostly) Glock pistols do not have safeties? The argument that you will fagettaboutit because you are under stress, but remember it when you are under stress with a rifle has always seemed wacky to me.

After the last few years of shooting and carrying striker guns exclusively I am not as absolutely sure of myself as I absolutely used to be. But this could be coupled with me doing more shooting than I ever have in my life, so I have more reps in than when I was doing more 1911 shooting.

I will admit that it pisses me off when some of these youngsters go on YouTube and say things like "You (you talkin to me?!?!?!...) will forget to utilize the safety under stress" when they have never met me. They always say stuff like they claim to have watched Teir One Operators do it on the range and in training, but it has been a long, long time since the main line T1 guys have been using pistols with safeties on them.

[Clusterfrack]

Spicy topic, @Glenn E. Meyer. I'm not sure this belongs in the competition subform but let's see how the discussion evolves.

See BBI's excellent sticky post on why good guys lose. Safeties are one reason.

At matches and in training I've seen more issues with grip safeties than with thumb safeties, but enough of both to convince me that I don't want either on a defensive handgun. These have included: 1) Failure to deactivate safety before trying to shoot or clear malfunctions, 2) failure to activate safety before holstering, and 3) broken safety.

Who have been the worst safety offenders? Obviously, I don't have stats but far and away kids are #1 on not using safeties correctly. New female shooters have been a close #2. Grip safeties are the most common with kids and newbie females--probably because of hand size. But thumb safeties are constantly not being taken off, and even worse not being put on prior to holstering.

I don't think advanced age has much to do with it. It's lack of experience, stress, and/or cognitive load combined with something unusual that seem to be the main causes.

I've guided my family members toward Glocks with SCDs, even though I almost always carry a TDA w/decocker only. Remembering to decock before holstering presents a similar issue to a safety. I've forgotten to decock and thumb-check exactly once in my life, and you can take that as a good or a bad thing--or both.

[1Rangemaster]

FWIW, I carried and competed with 1911s decades ago, before coming upon Glock pistols. I would say I carry them 98% of the time. The exceptions are a 1911 once or twice a year, snub noses-hat tip to Claude Werner-and once every year or two, an N frame.
From my observations it has been about training and experience. I shoot an IDPA match in"retro" gear once a year for the fun of it; no issues. I have had tens of thousands of reps on the 1911 safety. I distinctly recall missing it once at a match in the 1980s. I didn't "forget"-just totally screwed up the presentation.
Anecdote: I volunteer at a local club to help with church "security" teams shoot. This last quarter we had one leader who showed up with a different action every session of the three total. The last session he had an older Kimber which ran...
when he pushed the safety off after I told him to. One of our evaluations is the 5 shots in 5secs. @5 yards on a 5 inch bull. He was not successful on multiple runs. When I pointed this out politely, I got a sheepish smile and the declaration he'd "remember"-yeah, right...
Hopefully his guardian angel is around if Hell comes through the doors.
The other malfunction I've had is short stroking a snub trigger, and that's on me. I don't think age-I'm 70-has much to do with it. Mental incompetence can strike at any time.
YMMV
Edit to add for @Clusterfrack : respectfully, sir, you are describing a lack of training for youth, women, etc.

[Clusterfrack]

@Clusterfrack : respectfully, sir, you are describing a lack of training for youth, women, etc.

I agree. However, grip and thumb safeties require asking more of a new shooter, and come with added ergonomic issues. I am not sure safeties make their shooting safer.

[RJ]

I was in Instructional System Design throughout the majority of my 32 year career in Aerospace. In that time, I worked on or led probably a dozen or more large scale ($100M+) training solutions for US and overseas Military and commercial entities. The systems I delivered trained combat troops in aviation, ground and naval environments. Most all were young, fit, highly trained and exceptionally motivated. The training was both deep and wide, including hundreds of hours of computer based and computer aided training, classroom instruction, and simulation in live, virtual and constructive environments.

And despite all this, in service, we still had accidents involving humans who, while highly trained, at "that moment" made the wrong call and ended up injured or worse. First thing that happens in an accident investigation? They ask what kind of training did the person have.

So if you can't get a highly trained, skilled professional to avoid making human errors, my contention would be the only common denominator as regards incidence of "forgetting the safety", is that there is no common denominator.

Now, in coming to shooting late in life, I tried guns with safeties, and guns without. I am not sure if it is every single one, or just almost every single one, but when using guns with safeties, I experienced at least one episode where I went to shoot, only to not feel a bang, when there should have been a bang. My lizard brain is like, where's the bang?!

Funny, this actual thing happened to me yesterday with my 1911. I've had it a year, shooting it almost exclusively, over 1,000 rounds to date and 20 separate range sessions. Chamber round, engage TS. Glance at target, raise gun, fire. Or not. Frack. How could I have left the safety on.

I mean, being an engineer, if there's a part that isn't needed in a design, I will try and remove it. I see a safety as an unnecessary attachment with no benefit, at all (ok, maybe on a 320 ) But I don't mind people who like safeties on their gun. More power to you. But this is why I roll my eyes whenever I see someone argue for safeties, and then justify episodes of failing to disengage them with "it's a training issue!!". Yeah, sure. So I will generally tend to tune out any discussion on safeties (but not this one, because I respect Glenn and think it's a good question) , because it's generally pointless.

tl;dr: Safeties are not for me.