August Rangemaster Newsletter

[LJP]

We have discussed the Shoot Steel targets before.

The scoring zone may be a little high depending on your philosophy.

If you were aiming for heart and a wider zone of vitals, it would be lower, like the -0 of the IDPA target.

When you add a shirt like in the example, the discrepancy becomes more clear.

That high in the upper chest, the vital structure window can get quite narrow.

They’ll probably still be good hits and stop the fight, but if you wanted to correlate to anatomy.

I think there was some discussion that trying to hit the pulmonary artery trunks and great vessels above the heart was the goal?

That works too. That could explain the discrepancy between IDPA -0 and the Shoot Steel center.

Attachment 107698

Attachment 107699

Caveat, I’m just a dumb paramedic with two decades of experience treating GSWs and other assorted trauma and the benefit of a cadaver lab, but…

The point is moot. No matter which scoring ring you use, the effects will be largely the same. Connect the two circles into an oval, and you have an excellent and anatomically relevant area (perhaps too wide, but I digress). I am a fan of using an imaginary line drawn between the armpits as a vertical reference on the human torso. My only other observation is that assuming a tendency for shots to go low due to common deficiencies in technique, I think a habitually higher aiming point is probably a good thing.

As you say, differences in philosophy.

At any rate, seems like an excellent drill that I look forward to incorporating into my practice!

[jlw]

Hey, @Tom Givens (IDPA Member# A00008),

I forget. Just who was it that got the -0 area on the IDPA target moved to its current location?

[Guerrero]

Thanks @Tom Givens , there's a lot of good stuff in this issue.

I don't know when I'll get a chance to use the "autonomically important" info, but I'm definitely going to keep it in the memory banks.

Justin Dyal's "Double-Add One" looks just like the drill I was looking for, since I can't draw from the holster at my local range.

@LittleLebowski is there any way we can "invite" Justin Dyal to P-F?

[WobblyPossum]

Thanks @Tom Givens , there's a lot of good stuff in this issue.

I don't know when I'll get a chance to use the "autonomically important" info, but I'm definitely going to keep it in the memory banks.

Justin Dyal's "Double-Add One" looks just like the drill I was looking for, since I can't draw from the holster at my local range.

@LittleLebowski is there any way we can "invite" Justin Dyal to P-F?

I thought he was a member already.

[jlw]

@LittleLebowski is there any way we can "invite" Justin Dyal to P-F?

He is already a member here.

[JCN]

Hey, @Tom Givens (IDPA Member# A00008),

I forget. Just who was it that got the -0 area on the IDPA target moved to its current location?

If open minded, when assessing an “A” zone where all hits are likely to be as good under clothing or on a human, probably the most anatomically accurate would be the IPSC turtle target which accounts for the shape and anatomy of the rib cage and the structures within.



Sure, it’s not a great target for training marksmanship and wobble, but if you were to score anatomical hits it would seem that’s the most faithful to high probability hits.

The issue with trying to hold a small upper circle instead of the oval of actual anatomy is that you slow down and you also don’t take good shots that are good. Can you imagine holding off of a shot lower than the Shoot Steel circle in real life that would have been a heart shot because you’re trained that under the circle is a “miss?”

Separating a target for training accuracy purposes is valid. Holding to a non-anatomic standard can cause training scars when “good enough” might actually be a better shot, faster. Anatomically speaking.

[Mark D]

Great Rangemaster newsletter, as always.

I think the drill deserves it's own thread, so I started it here: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....to-Tom-Givens)

[JCN]

Basically any target that grades a direct heart shot as a “miss” should be scrutinized for breeding training scars.



IMO. Will it be good enough? Sure. Is it ideal? I can’t see how it possibly can be.

I’ve personally identified heart position on over 20,000 live, clothed humans in real time. I have a pretty good sense of where it is. It’s not where Shoot Steel targets say it is.

And that’s okay. As long as you don’t carry scars over to a real humanoid.

USPSA A-zone is too generous. Shoot Steel is displaced upwards. They all have flaws. It’s important to realize they’re just paper representations and to not try and keep to that same convention when it’s not appropriate.

[Mark D]

Not a medical dude or a gunslinger, so out of my lane. But it seems like a lot of the high level military guys, including KD4 and Pressberg, emphasize the upper chest.

I understand the aortic arch, sitting above the heart, is considered an excellent area for immediate incapacitation.

Of course, these targets all assume a full-value frontal view. I believe it was Tom Kier (Sayock Kali master, shooter, and one of Kyle Defoor's mentors) who advocates aiming between the shoulder blades, regardless of how the adversary is positioned relative to yourself.

[JCN]

Not a medical dude or a gunslinger, so out of my lane. But it seems like a lot of the high level military guys, including KD4 and Pressberg, emphasize the upper chest.

I understand the aortic arch, sitting above the heart, is considered an excellent area for immediate incapacitation.

Of course, these targets all assume a full-value frontal view. I believe it was Tom Kier (Sayock Kali master, shooter, and one of Kyle Defoor's mentors) who advocates aiming between the shoulder blades, regardless of how the adversary is positioned relative to yourself.

Agree. It's a very good place to aim. As is the whole IPSC classic A zone area.

But an icepick through the atria or right ventricle will cause just as quick of an issue as the arch.

They're thinner and more vulnerable to tearing whereas the thick, muscular aorta has some self-sealing ability.

Assuming we are talking about pistol rounds poking holes rather than rifle rounds.

I just don't see any validity in downgrading a direct shot to the heart (including atria) as a "miss" in favor of a single upper pulmonary artery on one side.

If taking training targets to real anatomy, I'd support anywhere on the IPSC turtle A zone as fast as accurately possible over a high circle that excludes the heart and gets dangerously close to missing outside the ribcage with an inch or two wobble up and right.