Original Colt M1911A1 Test Target T-10 Ring Sizes?

[RJ]

Since I have a spreadsheet already for optics like this, I'm pondering running a set of numbers to predict offset errors in POI at different ranges with a "6 o clock hold at 15 yard" iron sights. And I'm bored.

I thought this would be fairly easy...but 45 minutes of basic trigonometry, some algebra and a couple chicken bones later, I came up with this:



The math seems to work, and the values are consistent with what I think is going on in reality. I had to actually write it out (gray boxes at the bottom) to convince me I was heading in the right direction. If someone is REALLY interested in the math, I'll post what I came up with.

I'll give this a shot next week, I plan to shoot some close in stuff, so it will be interesting to compare whether I can use this to get closer to the bullseye at 5, 7, and 10. This data indicates I should hold a bit high when I try to nail 1" squares on Find Your Level at 5 yards, for instance.

[RJ]

Still digging around on this. I sent an email to the Colt Collection at the Museum of Connecticut History, asking if they had any info about a ‘T10’ test target.

https://museumofcthistory.org/colt-collection/

The director emailed me back and said she’d pass on my questions to one of the Curators later this week.


I made up a MIL-STD-100/ASME Y14 format drawing of what a 2023 version of a M1911 Sighting Image would be. I’m pretty familiar with Engineering Drawing formats, so it was a fun project to creat a ‘modern day’ version of a test target, that I would have specified if I was still in the Aerospace business.

I put ‘July 4th’ for the drawing date, seems appropriate.

Plan is to get to the range this week and shoot it.

[RJ]

Ack, I realized I forgot to include a link to the US&S wartime 1911 video.

Test firing is around 7:30”.

[Chuck Whitlock]

My assumption in that particular image is that the 3" circle below the black, is centered at the "6 o'clock" position. This would correspond with para 4.4.7, which specifies that hold for the Targeting and Accuracy test.

Out of an aside, I think with 99% certainty this (para 4.4.7) is the definition of the "6 o'clock hold" that I've heard about ever since I got into handguns 10 or so years ago. I never saw a definition of what it actually was until I started researching this topic.

Since I have a spreadsheet already for optics like this, I'm pondering running a set of numbers to predict offset errors in POI at different ranges with a "6 o clock hold at 15 yard" iron sights. And I'm bored.

Rich,

I think that you should also bear in mind what sights were on the gun when that protocol was adopted....the small, rounded, vestigial GI sights. @Tom Givens has written about the advocacy of point shooting by the likes of Rex Applegate, due to the near uselessness of the sights in that day and age. I daresay that the 6 o'clock hold was the only way to be able to see both the dark sights and the dark target. The high-contrast sight choices we have today are light-years better.

[RJ]

Rich,

I think that you should also bear in mind what sights were on the gun when that protocol was adopted....the small, rounded, vestigial GI sights. @Tom Givens has written about the advocacy of point shooting by the likes of Rex Applegate, due to the near uselessness of the sights in that day and age. I daresay that the 6 o'clock hold was the only way to be able to see both the dark sights and the dark target. The high-contrast sight choices we have today are light-years better.

Yup...understood.



I'm just indulging myself in a little historical research here. That I can put holes in.

[RJ]

Some new data emerged today.

I contacted an eBay seller of a "10T" target purported to be an "original Colt" target. I asked him what the size of the 8 ring (black) was, out of interest. He was kind enough to respond, that it was 2 and 3/4".

That interested me enough to go back and do a graphical analysis of the still image from the US&W wartime video showing the test target in use with a M1911. I put a couple line segments on the still, and did some basic algebra to come up with an estimate of 2.799. This is quite an interesting coincidence, as it closely matches this eBay target dimension of 2.75.

Seems curious value to me (2 and 3/4) with the specification value being 3", but I'm not sure what to think at this point.

[RJ]

So I took as correct the input I got from the eBay seller of the "10T" 8 ring of 2 and 3/4 inches, and constructed a target using appropriately sized dimensions for all the other rings.

I then graphically mapped these rings onto the image of the "Colt Python T-10 Test Target" that is available from the "Custom Shop" (I misspoke earlier, this appears to be a private business in Hamilton, Montana, and nothing to do with Colt, the manufacturer). Anyway, I ended up with this set of ring sizes:

"Colt" T-10: RINGS: 9, 6 1/2, 5, 3 3/4, 2 3/4, 1 3/4 & 1 IN.

After printing, I have to admit that this target "looks" a lot like the various historical photographs of Colt firearm test targets I see.

Still looking for confirmation from anyone with an "actual" genuine authentic Colt paper test target, marked either T-10 or T-10A, of the ring sizes, or information on a source that might define what this is.

[Robinson]

@RJ - have you seen this yet? https://www.customshopinc.com/produc...0-test-target/

[RJ]

@RJ - have you seen this yet? https://www.customshopinc.com/produc...0-test-target/

Yes, thanks, I linked that in the OP. Appreciate the thought, though.

I did misspeak: it appears it is not a "Colt" shop but rather a private gun store in Hamilton MT. To date, they've not responded to my query about the ring sizes, so I don't know where they are getting it from. I asked Colt CS already and they can't help with any information, either. I've also struck out in the Library of Congress. I need to hit up the CT Museum Colt Collection again; the director indicated one of the Curators would get back to me but nothing yet.

[RJ]

Bottom Line Up Front

A user on another forum was kind enough to provide me with a genuine T-10 test target. After some careful measuring, and compiling this data with other sources, I estimate the T-10 Target Ring outside diameters as follows:

1 1/8 (10 ring)
1 7/8 (9 ring)
2 3/4 (8 ring)
3 11/16 (7 ring)
5 (6 ring)
6 5/8 (5 ring), and
8 3/4 (4 ring) inches

I then used LibreOffice Draw to make a printable "T-10 (2023)". This file is downloadable from my google drive:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RDs...usp=drive_link



I appreciate all the help/inputs/questions I received. For whatever reason, I really find this historical stuff interesting.


Additional Info

As a part of this research, I stumbled on the original M1911A1 targeting and accuracy requirements, based on a 1958 Federal Specification, which I found pretty interesting. As well, I believe that that spec also defines the infamous "6 o'clock hold", which I've never actually written down anywhere.

In the event it helps anyone who also wants to go down this rabbit hole, the list of sources and information collected is compiled below.


Information Sources as of 7/14/23, listed as “Source” then “Notes”:

Photographs of genuine T-10 Test Targets: 6/22-Present – Did screen shots of Photographs discovered online of various genuine T-10 test targets. Performed numerous graphical/numerical analysis of jpegs, using drawing tool, via comparitive sizing of line segments/circles to generate estimated ring sizes for each that match the jpeg image.

1911 Forum: 6/22: Thread started, no info to date.

Colt Forum: 6/23: Thread started, no info to date.

1911 Addicts Forum: 6/23: Thread started. 7/10: Forum user emailed me a pdf / mailed me a copy of his actual 1967 T-10 Test Target. Extracted data from this target using digital calipers/mm tape. Used this data to construct replica T-10 (2023). Tool(s) used: LibreOffice (2023)/Linux Mint 21.0.

“Custom Shop” Hamilton MT: 6/28: Query sent. No response to date.

Pistol-Forum: 6/29: Thread started, no info to date.

Colt Customer Service: 7/10: Customer Service Rep “Eric” confirmed they do not have any info on this via email.

Glock Talk Forum: 7/10: Thread started, no info to date.

Firearms Museum, Buffalo Bill Center of the West, Cody WY: 7/11: No info, but archivist “Matthew” provided me the contact info to the Colt Archives, to which I subsequently sent a query.

Colt Archives, Hartford CT: 7/11: Query sent.

Library of Congress online catalog: 7/2: Nothing found.

EverySpec (Military Specifications) (Various): 7/3: Examined the following Mil Specs for M1911A1 related info, found none: MIL-C-1217A, MIL-C-1217B, MIL-G- 45140B, MIL-G-4500D, MIL-I-45607C, MIL-P-10831B, MIL-PRF-71208A, MIL-STD-45662, MIL-STD-70663A, MIL-T-987A, MIL-T-9874A, MIL-W-13855D, TECP_700_Vol III 1967, TM43-0001-27, TM_9_1005 22 June 1964, TOP-3-2-045.

Colt Collection, State Museum of Connecticut History, Hartford CT: 7/5: Director indicated curator would look into this. No response to date.

eBay Seller “10T” paper target.: 7/6: eBay seller “Blovit” confirms black / center of “10T Target” he has for sale is 2.75”.

NRA National Firearms Museum Fairfax VA: 7/9: Query sent. No response to date.

EverySpec (web site): Federal Specification “PISTOL, CALIBER .45, AUTOMATIC: M1911A1”, document number D.P.355a, dated 16 September, 1964. Targeting and Accuracy requirements are (sic): 3.3.26.1: “Targeting. At a range of 15 yards, at least 4 shots out of a series of 7 shots shall be within or cut the edge of a 3-inch diameter circle (sighting image), and the center of impact of the 7-shot group shall not be located more than 4 inches radially from the center of the sighting image when tested as specified in 4.3.3.1 and 4.4.7. 3.3.26.2: “Accuracy. At a range of 15 yards, 7 consecutive shots shall be within or cut the edge of a 4-inch diameter circle when tested as specified in 4.3.3. 1 and 4.4.7. 4.4.7: “Targeting and Accuracy Test. The pistols shall be tested for targeting and accuracy requirement (see 3.3.26) by firing seven rounds of ammunition from a folly loaded magazine with the pistol sights alined at 6 o’clock on the sighting image.”

DoD Web Site “ASSIST”: Located a copy of "MIL-P-1297B", dated July 8, 1958, a Military Specification for the M1911A1. 1297B was superseded by D.P.355a, but contains identical text for paragraph 3.3.26 and 4.4.7.

Internet Archive dot org: Nothing found to date.