The case for the assessment pause

[RevolverRob]

Based on what's seen on the active self protection channel, bad guys start to scatter when you start putting rounds on one or two of them

BBI talks about it here. The salient points are:

Everybody, win or lose, ran out of time before they ran out of ammunition regardless of what they were armed with. One side or the other was down or in flight. Multiple bad guys was harder. Generally they were put to flight once the fighting started, but if one or more were in close proximity and went for the grapple they tended to fight it out until they either won or disarmed the victim and fled with or without shooting/stabbing the victim.

[MickAK]

So.....if you normally carry a weapon with 17 or more rounds in it, are you going to be able to throttle that back if you go to a social NPE with just a J-frame?

I think so. The grip, trigger, and sights are pretty different.

I think the question is would I, and I don't know. I don't think what I do is that different from what you quoted. It's two fast, two slow (relatively), one final. Assessment ongoing but a definite pause after the 5th regardless.

What if there's multiple opponents? Not everyone in a fight is a fighter. Some people are just carried along. The guy trying to kill me is clearly a fighter.

I don't think I'm capable of assessing much after two other than there's still a threat in my picture. I don't think I'm capable of determining whether I brained someone or took a piece of their cheekbone out after a third. They're either there or they're not. I just think there's a middle ground between mag dump and double tap.

[HCountyGuy]

Thanks for the tag.

What you’re asking is exactly the “training” that USPSA and to some extent IDPA afford.

It’s not to train tactics, it’s to cognitively load you with a gun in your hand to solve a problem not of your own choosing.

There’s a phenomenon that happens gaming called “losing your mind” when you get distracted by a novel prop or malfunction and it messes with your OODA loop and you can’t get back into it.

That kind of testing is important (I feel) to identify where the weakness in mental focus and gun handling automaticity are.

I’ll say it again: GAMING IS NOT TACTICAL TRAINING

It’s problem solving with a gun training.

I’ll fully acknowledge that the USPSA target scoring zones aren’t really appropriate for LEO and that making a delta count as a miss is probably more appropriate.

I’m not LEO, but if I were to design something for LEO it might look something like:

1. A mini-USPSA stage. Deltas are misses. Hit factor scoring is important.
2. Add a stage description and a prop (something like starting seated or holding a burrito) or better yet a prop mid stage that eats up mental bandwidth (like having a lock box with a key in it they have to open).
3. Give them limited ammo (to throttle hosing)
4. Require a certain minimum Hit Factor or maximum time allowed (like Bakersfield).
5. Don’t shame the people who do poorly, offer them extra chances to practice or offer them coaching / dry fire program
6. Make it fun.

If that’s too much work to set up, LEO here often piggyback onto our matches.

I will say shooting USPSA can definitely help with things like assessment at speed. I've registered less-than-ideal shots on targets and made it up with a better shot, even though it may not have helped me in the overall scheme of the game itself.

One drill I really, really like for cognitive load/problem solving is the "Blue Falcon Drill" that JLW's agency uses (or at least did when I took his class several years back). Class was broken in to at least two groups, one group sets up targets for the other and there's no kind of walk-through or heads up about it. There's no-shoots you're not allowed to even muzzle and some targets thrown in that screwed up several folks's OODA (myself included).

[03RN]

Im really enjoying this thread.

I'm a former SAW gunner. My first hunt after getting out had me unloading my marlin m60 into a rabbit.

I remember sitting there kinda laughing, kind disappointed in myself. Since then I've been a vocal proponent of fighting at assessment speed. Add in bouncing and working in psych hospitals and I've had to throttle back, and then throttle back up violence per my assessments. Then with a full adrenaline dump, bleeding, have to reconstitute zyprexa or draw up a med from a broken ampule.

As for shooting. Yeah, I like bill drills but I'm not thinking I'm going to do that in a fight. It's just a skill to have.

The modern mag dump training is fun but unfortunately to many people do it and accept it as gospel because they have no experience or their experience is over seas where hosing people down was ok.

[Utm]

Im really enjoying this thread.

I'm a former SAW gunner. My first hunt after getting out had me unloading my marlin m60 into a rabbit.

I remember sitting there kinda laughing, kind disappointed in myself. Since then I've been a vocal proponent of fighting at assessment speed. Add in bouncing and working in psych hospitals and I've had to throttle back, and then throttle back up violence per my assessments. Then with a full adrenaline dump, bleeding, have to reconstitute zyprexa or draw up a med from a broken ampule.

As for shooting. Yeah, I like bill drills but I'm not thinking I'm going to do that in a fight. It's just a skill to have.

The modern mag dump training is fun but unfortunately to many people do it and accept it as gospel because they have no experience or their experience is over seas where hosing people down was ok.

I actually think Bill drills are pretty realistic

[03RN]

I actually think Bill drills are pretty realistic

So shooting 6 rounds as fast as you can without assessment is realistic?

[Utm]

So shooting 6 rounds as fast as you can without assessment is realistic?

If a dude is a few feet away and you take a hard lateral step and draw and fire its completely realistic

[mmc45414]

one group sets up targets for the other and there's no kind of walk-through or heads up about it. There's no-shoots you're not allowed to even muzzle and some targets thrown in that screwed up several folks's OODA (myself included).

For years (seems like they all got shot up and we haven't replaced them) we had a basket full of toys that included cameras and binoculars and guns and telephones and such with nails glued to them so they could be pushed into cardboard targets while the next shooter has their back turned. The toys included a police badge, and our group includes several LE folks who from time to time would invite a coworker to join us. It is sobering how frequently the target with a toy gun and the toy police badge took rounds.

[camel]

Im really enjoying this thread.

I'm a former SAW gunner. My first hunt after getting out had me unloading my marlin m60 into a rabbit.

I remember sitting there kinda laughing, kind disappointed in myself. Since then I've been a vocal proponent of fighting at assessment speed. Add in bouncing and working in psych hospitals and I've had to throttle back, and then throttle back up violence per my assessments. Then with a full adrenaline dump, bleeding, have to reconstitute zyprexa or draw up a med from a broken ampule.

As for shooting. Yeah, I like bill drills but I'm not thinking I'm going to do that in a fight. It's just a skill to have.

The modern mag dump training is fun but unfortunately to many people do it and accept it as gospel because they have no experience or their experience is over seas where hosing people down was ok.

I think what you have said is realistic. I’ve never been combat. But shooting. outside your decision making speed within of a use of force paradigm. Is realistic and comes from either experience or really. Hardcore training. Very few people have the ability to have used force in a situational setting.

It’s a totally different mindset.

An assessment pause should be what is your target doing at the point where you have assembled the rounds on the target and then asses the whole situation. That is even tougher to train.

[03RN]

If a dude is a few feet away and you take a hard lateral step and draw and fire its completely realistic

So this goes to the heart of this discussion.