The case for the assessment pause

[camel]

@JCN, I think a better way to phrase that would be "Most shooters skills SHOULD limit them to .30 splits". We know from the real world that it doesn't. Lack of skill + lack of emotional control + adrenaline dump/fear emergency tends to produce the cyclic rate, unaimed fire we see in actual shootings. The solution of course is to select, hire and train mature, emotionally fit candidates to a high level of skill. Not gonna happen. They're literally going in the exact opposite direction.

I think you have hit the nail on the head. It’s very hard for someone to stop fighting for their life or the life of a loved one or a teammate. When I can just shoot them some more without knowing it.

Raw performance on standards don’t tell you what stress in real world conditions do.

You can either select that individual. Or you can train that individual through a good training program with lots of experience that gets expensive.

[MVS]

It struck me listening to fight commentary of MMA how some combinations are set up to specifically move the meat around to expose it to the subsequent strikes. The fighter anticipates how the meat will move and is poised to intercept the movement because they’re ahead of it.

Agree with @AMC that high level of knowledge and understanding may not be possible in the current LEO training so certain cutoffs of split speed and assessment might (and should) be influenced by the audience it’s meant for.

I haven't been on the forum much lately so forgive me if this has already been covered, but something like this?

https://pistol-training.com/performance-shooting/

[JCN]

I haven't been on the forum much lately so forgive me if this has already been covered, but something like this?

https://pistol-training.com/performance-shooting/

That is a great article that you linked and totally appropriate.

I think one thing that gets a little muddied on PF is the dichotomy that SLG references. Sometimes what you should recommend to others isn’t what you would recommend for yourself or specialized training junkies.

It’s a good reminder that most advice is contextual and one size doesn’t alway fit all!

[BK14]

Agree with @AMC that high level of knowledge and understanding may not be possible in the current LEO training so certain cutoffs of split speed and assessment might (and should) be influenced by the audience it’s meant for.

I think it’s critical to train both how to shoot fast, and train how to shoot at assessment. Our last in-service was working on doubles. Whether or not they’ve trained to shoot lightning splits, we see cops shoot crazy fast splits when under stress. If we never train how to process, grip, control, see, etc. under speed, then we’re setting people up for failure. Likewise, if we don’t teach that once you can TRAIN to control the gun at speed, you now need to control your brain, to drop that speed to assessment levels.

I’ve seen a lot of poor shooters come through academies that shoot at .30 or slower “assessment” speed, but they’re still outrunning their headlights at that speed.

The difficulty is making sure the slow kids understand that shooting doubles is an assessment tool, not an engagement strategy.

[Mark D]

I’ve seen a lot of poor shooters come through academies that shoot at .30 or slower “assessment” speed, but they’re still outrunning their headlights at that speed.

I think this is an important point. I was shooting the FAST drill today, with 0.25 - 0.3 second splits on the body shots. For me, that is basically predictive shooting - I was predicting that the dot would appear on the 8" target and working the trigger accordingly. If I was forced to truly observe and assess my target for every shot, I think my splits would need to be slower. On the other hand, a good shooter with faster vision and processing speed might be quite capable of assessing at 0.25.

[JCN]

I think it’s critical to train both how to shoot fast, and train how to shoot at assessment. Our last in-service was working on doubles. Whether or not they’ve trained to shoot lightning splits, we see cops shoot crazy fast splits when under stress. If we never train how to process, grip, control, see, etc. under speed, then we’re setting people up for failure. Likewise, if we don’t teach that once you can TRAIN to control the gun at speed, you now need to control your brain, to drop that speed to assessment levels.

I’ve seen a lot of poor shooters come through academies that shoot at .30 or slower “assessment” speed, but they’re still outrunning their headlights at that speed.

The difficulty is making sure the slow kids understand that shooting doubles is an assessment tool, not an engagement strategy.

That is a great observation and assessment.

I think this is an important point. I was shooting the FAST drill today, with 0.25 - 0.3 second splits on the body shots. For me, that is basically predictive shooting - I was predicting that the dot would appear on the 8" target and working the trigger accordingly. If I was forced to truly observe and assess my target for every shot, I think my splits would need to be slower. On the other hand, a good shooter with faster vision and processing speed might be quite capable of assessing at 0.25.

Kudos for you for recognizing the limits of and working on your skill set! Not many people are able to self-assess and it's the key to performance.

If you'll indulge me with another fighting analogy, I might be able to contextualize and (perhaps) help?



When talking about fighting, you hear about "lightning fast reflexes" sometimes... but we know from science that even the top fighters have "normal" conduction speed and "normal" simple reflexes... it's not their nerves that are faster...


When you hear the fighters describe it to lay-people, it's pretty clear that they pick up on EARLIER and more subtle cues than the average Joe.

You'll hear them say something like, "I saw their eyes dart" or "their head turned" [and I knew they were starting a punch / kick / attack / whatever].

You'll hear the seasoned fighter say "he/she/they TELEGRAPHED their attack so it was easy for me to block/intercept/counter."

Basically it's not that they're assessing faster... they're assessing EARLIER so that's what shortens the time elapsed.




That's the same thing a high level shooter will do. The more reproducible your mechanics, the earlier you can call shots good.

On a static target close up, I'm calling shots good off the index of the previous shot.


Fast doubles are a way to train the mechanics but aren't generally appropriate self defense tools (unless at very close engagement) because meat moves.

[jbg270]

…The difficulty is making sure the slow kids understand that shooting doubles is an assessment tool, not an engagement strategy.

I think this is the discussion to have. How do we avoid training tools (Double, Bill drill, etc.) becoming the engagement strategy. I’m not sure what that looks like but it’s got to be more than “don’t do this on the street”.

[BK14]

I think this is the discussion to have. How do we avoid training tools (Double, Bill drill, etc.) becoming the engagement strategy. I’m not sure what that looks like but it’s got to be more than “don’t do this on the street”.

I know what helped me break from always pushing pace, was having higher consequences for misses, and drills that focus on accuracy, including at distance. Even when pushing yourself on drills like the Test, Defoor’s hat standard, most all of Blower’s drills (hateful 8, all hands, etc), you’ll still be shooting at closer to assessment speed if you want to score well.

That and watching examples of others that have out ran their headlights and not performed, causing a mindset shift are what helped me.

[UNM1136]

@Dan Lehr, in reference to my post you mentioned, and specifically the last incident I described:

is problem was coupled with very restrictive policies that mandated deployment of multiple tools, mandated 'planning', and mandated the vague concept of 'time and distance', it resulted in scenarios where problems that had in previous times been resolved by just a few officers using their available tools, experience and common sense, became huge clusterfarks and Cecil B Demille type productions of 30-50 officers, all trying to not be the guy who had to actually do anything. This led to almost farcical attempts to 'de-escalate' incidents that by any reasonable measure required immediate action. And often, like the incident in my previous post, it led to higher level force being required and very negative outcomes.

All this is to say that, though I'm also a huge believer in improved, proper tactics training for patrol officers, absent a culture and policies that enable decision making on the part of those same officers, it not only won't help but can actually make things worse. I've seen it first hand.

Um, so much yes. "Please God, don't let me be the guy that flips this guy's switch. But if I have to be the One let me flip it quickly and be done."

Much of current UOF training is based on "How do we not fuck up, legally". Not "how we teach cops to survive shitty situations, and the legal fallout?"

De-escaltion has a place, when it works. It should ALWAYS be a goal, until it can't be....

I literally today had a (master)Firearms Instructor tell one of my squadmates that he "would not sign off on the issue of the shotgun", because he was not included on the decision. His issue was the officer had an 870 at his old department, and was now issued a 590A1. My current Head of Fireams guy blessed it, provided I did upgrade/sustainment training... ummm. If you know the differences between the 870 and the 590...you are probably qualified to tell, teach, and quall someone else. The master(ish) instructor just pissed and moaned at the cop, not the Instructor and the Head of Firearms (neither of which are Master Instructors...) that blessed and did the deed.

I would LOVE another cop with a tube responding to calls for service. Bad calls for service.

I also just issued a guy a tube whom I did not have permission to issue a shotgun to. Forgiveness vs permission. He is on the short list for Firearms Instructor, and needs to pass the State shotgun qual with a 90 or better to get into the class.

Ummm... Shoot it, dude, and learn....And Perform.

pat

[GJM]

Start at :30 if you want to see one of those mag dumps: