The case for the assessment pause

[AMC]

In the contemporary environment ... again, we're looking at potentially three court systems - criminal, civil, and public opinion. Like any of the "name" drills, nothing wrong with shooting them occasionally, shooting them for time. Not sure that it's beneficial to frequently go through a case of ball to run a few of these as quickly as possible.

Glad to see Reston's position, thoughts referenced;
One of the beneficial things I took from a Frank Proctor class last year was the importance of the process of firing a single shot, then another single shot, etc vs firing several shots.

Of interest would be the two recent Alb PD shootings and the downrange concerns that definitely were an issue in one, and sure could have been in the second. Reading about the two victims who were hit by shoots that by-passed the BadGuy, one V peripherally and the other V with multiple, severe GSWs.
(And, yes I know that was the police)

I think Bill Drills, Blake's Drills, etc are super useful in developing hard skills in a training context. They help in building a consistent, sustainable grip, vision issues with transitions and 'sight picture', etc. They are not, and shouldn't be taught to cops, as engagement strategies. This is where I differ with a couple of trainers I highly respect. Yes.....Bill Drilling a bad guy is likely to be "Highly effective". It also might end up as unlawful force.

I've also trained with Proctor. I still think a lot of the confusion occurs in how some students take in the information. You can clearly articulate that a Bill Drill is an exercise to develop a good grip on the pistol for if you HAVE to fire multiple shots, but some students will go back to the station and say "They're teaching us to shoot the bad guy 6 times as fast as you can!" That has to really be guarded against.....and some shooters just aren't mature enough to have a gun, frankly. And by shooters....I mean cops.

[DDTSGM]

I've also trained with Proctor. I still think a lot of the confusion occurs in how some students take in the information. You can clearly articulate that a Bill Drill is an exercise to develop a good grip on the pistol for if you HAVE to fire multiple shots, but some students will go back to the station and say "They're teaching us to shoot the bad guy 6 times as fast as you can!" That has to really be guarded against.....and some shooters just aren't mature enough to have a gun, frankly. And by shooters....I mean cops.

To be fair, a lot of LE instructors, would not remember/understand the context for the drills. That is a problem throughout law enforcement training, you have a lot of folks teaching things they don't truly understand.

We also don't, as a general rule, rigorously test understanding of the why's of what we teach, focusing more on performance, rather than why it is important that an officer does the drill or task.

[Erick Gelhaus]

To be fair, a lot of LE instructors, would not remember/understand the context for the drills. That is a problem throughout law enforcement training, you have a lot of folks teaching things they don't truly understand.

We also don't, as a general rule, rigorously test understanding of the why's of what we teach, focusing more on performance, rather than why it is important that an officer does the drill or task.

I do not believe it is limited to the cop world.

[KevH]

I know there are some here who will agree with me on this.

When someone is trying to kill you (or you think someone is trying to kill you) it is very easy to floor the accelerator and very hard to hit to brakes fast enough.

Hours later, when asked how many rounds you fired, you may think three or four, but more often than not your magazine may tell a much different story.

In 2023 this may not be a popular opinion and may seem counterintuitive to some, but there are times you may wish your magazine only held eight rounds so that something would have made you pause for even a brief moment to re-asses.

[DDTSGM]

I do not believe it is limited to the cop world.

Totally agree.

[Mark D]

Jared Reston: "Meat moves when you shoot it". Recommends no faster than 0.27 - 0.31 splits.

[JCN]

Jared Reston: "Meat moves when you shoot it". Recommends no faster than 0.27 - 0.31 splits.

His anecdote was interesting:

“I transitioned to head and put two rounds into the windshield [because meat moves].”

Philosophically speaking, I think most shooter skill in a real life situation would limit splits to about 0.30+.

Just like most people in a fist fight would assess and cue each individual punch or kick.




I think for specialized or abnormally trained shooters / fighters, they might cue up moving combinations and track the moving meat on the way down.

Like in an MMA or Pro Boxing fight, they might cue up a combination but not just strike where the moving meat was at the beginning of the volley. And also knowing that if the volley is rapid enough, meat doesn’t have much time to move…


As an aside, I’m not a fan of Mozambique drills because meat does move!

How much?

If you have a 0.20 transition to head, the head can still drop approx 7 inches in that time.

[AMC]

@JCN, I think a better way to phrase that would be "Most shooters skills SHOULD limit them to .30 splits". We know from the real world that it doesn't. Lack of skill + lack of emotional control + adrenaline dump/fear emergency tends to produce the cyclic rate, unaimed fire we see in actual shootings. The solution of course is to select, hire and train mature, emotionally fit candidates to a high level of skill. Not gonna happen. They're literally going in the exact opposite direction.

[Mark D]

His anecdote was interesting:

“I transitioned to head and put two rounds into the windshield [because meat moves].”

Philosophically speaking, I think most shooter skill in a real life situation would limit splits to about 0.30+.

Just like most people in a fist fight would assess and cue each individual punch or kick.

I think for specialized or abnormally trained shooters / fighters, they might cue up moving combinations and track the moving meat on the way down.

Bill Blowers described a very similar OIS that he witnessed as a young SWAT cop. Exact same situation - the bad guy received a cranial shot and dropped like a rock. Several follow-up rounds passed through the location where the criminal had been standing.

And @JCN makes an interesting annalogy to striking. Skilled strikers will definitely throw "punches in bunches". But for me, at least, it was hard to anticipate when the target might go down, so I never developed combinations that involved a falling opponent.

[JCN]

Bill Blowers described a very similar OIS that he witnessed as a young SWAT cop. Exact same situation - the bad guy received a cranial shot and dropped like a rock. Several follow-up rounds passed through the location where the criminal had been standing.

And @JCN makes an interesting annalogy to striking. Skilled strikers will definitely throw "punches in bunches". But for me, at least, it was hard to anticipate when the target might go down, so I never developed combinations that involved a falling opponent.

It struck me listening to fight commentary of MMA how some combinations are set up to specifically move the meat around to expose it to the subsequent strikes. The fighter anticipates how the meat will move and is poised to intercept the movement because they’re ahead of it.

Agree with @AMC that high level of knowledge and understanding may not be possible in the current LEO training so certain cutoffs of split speed and assessment might (and should) be influenced by the audience it’s meant for.