At what point do you give up on a gun?

[Nephrology]

So, perhaps this post is mostly being made out of frustration, but I picked up a S&W 442-2 J frame for deep concealment in NPEs late last spring. I have truly struggled with this gun. I've done everything I know how to do to correct for it - obsessive dry fire, installed the APEX J frame kit (did help a ton, for sure), ball-and-dummy drills on the range, watched so many Jerry Miculek videos I almost thought I was him at one point (well, til' I hit the range) - but as it stands, even stationary at slow fire I am frankly lucky to keep my rounds on an 8" bullseye at 10 yards. At 7 yards, I can probably keep all 5 there half the time.

Now, I know that I could overcome all of this with practice. the root source of my abysmal performance with the J frame is a serious lack of familiarity with revolver shooting. I cut my teeth on 1911s and then quickly moved to Glocks where I have stayed since. I am far from the level of proficiency or experience as many on this board, but I can keep my shots from any of my 9mm glocks on a 3x5 at 10 yards all day. I can do the same with more or less most autoloaders, though of course with not the same degree of skill or repeatablilty. With revolvers, however, it seems that I uniformly am unable to hit the broad side of a barn with them unless they are in SA mode. I shudder to think how well I would do with my J frame in a real SD scenario...

The question is - at what point is it time to call it quits? Sell it at a loss and look for a single stack 9mm? I'd already own a M&P Shield if they weren't rarer than unicorns and bipartisan legislature, and I was seriously underwhelmed by all of the others I saw in the shop (Diamondback, Ruger LC9, Kahr).

On the other hand, is this the right thing to do? I still have a few hundred rounds of .38 SPL. I just don't know whether or not it would be wise or foolish to shoot it at this point. Ideally, I would invest in a Ruger Gp100 or S&W 686 as a more forgiving platform from which to learn wheelgun shooting, but frankly the money just isn't there.

Any thoughts? Have any of you reached a crossroads with a particular pistol where you said "enough is enough" and you gave up on it? All reliability issues aside, of course... I suspect this is probably not going to be incredibly common with most fullsize autoloaders, but I would appreciate any insight you might have from your own experience.

[TR675]

Have you tried the CT Lasergrips?

I find it damn near impossible to get a decent sight picture with the j-frames nubby sights. But, if I practice and go slow, with laser grips and ammo the gun likes I can keep 5 shots on an index card at 7yds. Ok, once. I did that one time. But it was cool.

J-frames are like a perfect storm of bad sights, no sight radius, light weight, and heavy trigger pull. It really takes some expertise to use them effectively.

Hopefully Headhunter will chime in on this thread as he is the snubby guru.

[YVK]

Individual decision and degree of tolerance; I guess, at a point of perceived futility. JV cut his losses on P30 at 5K, I keep plugging away with mine at 12K even though I wasn't happy with my performance at 5K.
I think the key is realistic expectations. The J-frames with their tiny sights and being a revolver are notoriously tough to shoot well, and the trigger is very different than 1911 or Glock. I'd stick with it for a bit and put some dedicated dry fire, but then again I don't even own a J-frame.

[Nephrology]

No, I have not - but at ~200-300 bucks a pair, I could well easily afford to sell the gun, buy an M&P9, and pick up some sights, a holster, etc.... I got the J frame for a deal, otherwise I probably would've held out for the Shield.

Individual decision and degree of tolerance; I guess, at a point of perceived futility. JV cut his losses on P30 at 5K, I keep plugging away with mine at 12K even though I wasn't happy with my performance at 5K.
I think the key is realistic expectations. The J-frames with their tiny sights and being a revolver are notoriously tough to shoot well, and the trigger is very different than 1911 or Glock. I'd stick with it for a bit and put some dedicated dry fire, but then again I don't even own a J-frame.

That's sort of what makes this tricky- I am comparing apples to oranges. Of course I will outshoot my J-frame with any of my glocks - that's a no brainer. All of the positive aspects of the J frame exist in its very compact dimensions. However, those benefits seem to become unimportant in comparison when I pull half of my shots and they land somewhere off paper...

[Ed L]

I don't now if this is going to sound contrarian and unhelpful, but I don't mean it to.

My belief is that smaller and more concealable firearms for NPE situations are compromises in terms of size, capacity and ability to shoot well so you can't expect close to the same performance or accuracy from it as you would from a Glock.

Having a Jframe is lightyears better than being unarmed. Most typical muggings and attacks and situations where you might need to use the gun will take place at close range. The 7 yard distance which you could keep all of your rounds in an 8" bull probably represent the max distance that you would have to use it. More likley it would be half of that or less.

I don't think buying a bigger revolver and practicing would help you since you would be practicing with something with a longer sight radius and better sights.

The crimson trace lasergrips mentioned would cost less than the new full sized revolver and give you more capability on your NPE revolver.

[YVK]

That's sort of what makes this tricky- I am comparing apples to oranges. Of course I will outshoot my J-frame with any of my glocks - that's a no brainer. All of the positive aspects of the J frame exist in its very compact dimensions. ..

Rent or borrow an alternative semi-auto, like Kahr or Shield or whatever you think is a fair comparison, and run it against the J. Might get a quick answer that way.

[Al T.]

Tamara is so going to kick me in the junk....

Other than getting some first hand coaching or buying a .22LR J frame, sell the snubby.

I have a gun safe full of S&W wheelguns, but getting proficient is a bit of a chore. When you look at the Airweights, you now have a ten pound trigger on a two pound gun. Not at all easy to shoot well, especially if it's a first revolver. Ed and I had to learn to shoot revolvers as that was what we had. It was not quick and easy. I was pretty good with a steel K frame and with my first aluminum framed snubby, I missed a 55 gallon drum at 20 yards or so.

IMHO, the Shield is one of the few small 9mms I'm willing to pocket carry. My initial exposure was very positive and I now have a couple to work with.

To me, the cost benefit ratio, even though I shoot the snubby well was crossed by the Shield's obvious increase in accuracy and rapid reloads. Add that soon you can get different sights, trigger pulls and still pocket carry and I'm done with snubbies except for ankle guns.

[DocGKR]

A J-frame really needs the CTC Lasergrips to be viable...

For years, J-frames were considered "arm's reach" weapons, that is until CTC Lasergrips were added. With the mild recoil of target wadcutters or standard pressure JHP's, officers are actually practicing with their BUG's; when combined with Lasergrips, qualification scores with J-frames have dramatically increased. Now 5 shots rapid-fire in a 6" circle at 25 yds is not uncommon--kind of mind blowing watching officers who could not hit the target at 25 yds with a J-frame suddenly qualify with all shots in the black…

2" J-frames are great BUG's and marginally acceptable low threat carry guns because they are lightweight, reliable, and offer acceptable terminal performance at close range--downsides are difficulty in shooting well at longer ranges because of sight design and sight radius limitations, along with reduced capacity coupled with slower reloading.

Personally I would go with a G19, others like a smaller pistol and would be well served by a Shield, M&P9c, G26, etc...

[shootist26]

So, perhaps this post is mostly being made out of frustration, but I picked up a S&W 442-2 J frame for deep concealment in NPEs late last spring. I have truly struggled with this gun. I've done everything I know how to do to correct for it - obsessive dry fire, installed the APEX J frame kit (did help a ton, for sure), ball-and-dummy drills on the range, watched so many Jerry Miculek videos I almost thought I was him at one point (well, til' I hit the range) - but as it stands, even stationary at slow fire I am frankly lucky to keep my rounds on an 8" bullseye at 10 yards. At 7 yards, I can probably keep all 5 there half the time.

Now, I know that I could overcome all of this with practice. the root source of my abysmal performance with the J frame is a serious lack of familiarity with revolver shooting. I cut my teeth on 1911s and then quickly moved to Glocks where I have stayed since. I am far from the level of proficiency or experience as many on this board, but I can keep my shots from any of my 9mm glocks on a 3x5 at 10 yards all day. I can do the same with more or less most autoloaders, though of course with not the same degree of skill or repeatablilty. With revolvers, however, it seems that I uniformly am unable to hit the broad side of a barn with them unless they are in SA mode. I shudder to think how well I would do with my J frame in a real SD scenario...

The question is - at what point is it time to call it quits? Sell it at a loss and look for a single stack 9mm? I'd already own a M&P Shield if they weren't rarer than unicorns and bipartisan legislature, and I was seriously underwhelmed by all of the others I saw in the shop (Diamondback, Ruger LC9, Kahr).

On the other hand, is this the right thing to do? I still have a few hundred rounds of .38 SPL. I just don't know whether or not it would be wise or foolish to shoot it at this point. Ideally, I would invest in a Ruger Gp100 or S&W 686 as a more forgiving platform from which to learn wheelgun shooting, but frankly the money just isn't there.

Any thoughts? Have any of you reached a crossroads with a particular pistol where you said "enough is enough" and you gave up on it? All reliability issues aside, of course... I suspect this is probably not going to be incredibly common with most fullsize autoloaders, but I would appreciate any insight you might have from your own experience.

Are you trying to stage the trigger? The best way to shoot a DA trigger is to roll it through in one continuous motion.

Unless there is something mechanically wrong with your j-frame, you should be able to hit targets at 25yds no sweat. Limiting factor is the sights, not the trigger

[nycnoob]

One of the things that makes the CT Laser grips so good is that they are oversized grips compared to the wood grips which come with the gun and they soften the recoil somewhat so it helps with your flinch. If you do not wish to spend the big bucks to get a laser at least get some soft oversized grips for the J frame.



Sile - Sile - Sile - Factory S&W
Hogue Bantam - Hogue Mono - Pachmayr Compac - Pachmayr Compac Pro

From a thread at

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-rev...rame-grip.html

Also you should paint your sight with nail polish as HeadHunter teaches us
Be sure not to skip the White base coat layer, its important.

http://www.personaldefensenetwork.co...-snubs-sights/

This simple makes a really big difference. I carry white and hot pink nailpolish in my shooting bag. When HH was at NE shooters last summer the host did not have painted sights. He used my nailpolish and his shooting improved noticeably.



I can not do Dot Torture with its two inch targets with my J frame but I can do better then an 8 inch group. HeadHunter recommends using an old CD to make targets. Draw an outline around the CD and around the hole with a black sharpie, fill in the small circle with a red sharpie. This make a great target, shots must be in the black circle to count, use the red circle as your aim point. You can fit several (6?) of these on the back of a typical target



Come join us at NE shooters, HH plans on coming back this year to teach snubnose again.