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Thread: General observations on non-lead ammo

  1. #1
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    General observations on non-lead ammo

    Yesterday one of the ranges where I RSO sponsored a half-day seminar on non-lead ammo, and I was asked to back up the rangemaster so had an excellent view of the event. There are a few takeaways, it's a limited number of datapoints but more than I had a few days ago so sharing here.

    The event was led by a National Park Service biologist whose job is to cull invasive wildlife... mostly feral pigs... from parks. There were also several biologists present from the local tribal Condor release program in addition to mostly older local hunters. That set up an interesting cultural moment, because a few of the younger (20s) seasonal biologists were pretty diverse, and one had blue hair. Because everyone shared an interest in shooting, all got along very well.

    After a safety moment, there was a brief lecture by the NPS guy. Then he shot lead and non-lead for accuracy, with essentially no difference in his Tikka T3x 308 (with the usual caveat that every rifle is unique and two otherwise identical rifles might prefer different loads). Then, he shot both into 10% ballistic gel. Not much difference in penetration, but a very obvious difference between a clear non-lead bullet track and a lead bullet that left a surprising amount of dark fine particulate and very visible lead behind. There was a lot of background conversation happening in the audience about not really wanting to eat that lead.

    The NPS guy offered me an opportunity to try a variety of loads in my rifle. We met at the range this morning. Background: I have a lot of experience using non-lead in lighter calibers to cull local invasive wildlife, which we're sometimes required to do by our project permits. In my case that's been smaller stuff so my experience is from 22 LR up to 6.5 Grendel, but nothing larger than that. The smaller stuff has been accurate and effective for me. Today we shot 308 Win out of my Remington 700, which is capable of sub-MOA groups with (lead) 175 SMK handloads if I do my job.

    I tried six different non-lead loads. The best 100-yard group of the day was 0.615 with Federal 150gr Copper, the more economical Federal load; it slightly outshot the Federal Premium 150gr Trophy load, which came in at 0.912. A 130gr Barnes Vor-TX TTSX load came in at 1.933, although that was my fault pulling one of those left, the rest of the group was inside an inch. A Sig Sauer 150gr load came in at 0.942. Hornady Superperformance 165gr CX was 0.990, but Hornady Outfitter 165gr CX opened up to 2.736 and there were no called fliers on that one, pretty sure it really was the ammo especially since others said it hadn't grouped well for them either.

    One group with each load isn't the best sample size, it's what we had time for and what I was comfortable shooting with someone else's ammo, even if my federal tax dollars did help pay for it. Still, five groups out of six under an inch, while the NPS guy and two RSO's were hovering off to the side in my peripheral vision, and that 0.615 might be the best group I've shot with that particular rifle. I'm pretty happy with that.

    After packing up I asked some questions about handgun loads, and in this case there was limited info to be had. Mostly we talked about generalities. As some of you know various threads on P-F have focused partially on penetration especially with hardcast or other solids. The NPS guy, having shot a whole lot of pigs, says he prefers non-lead hollow points which fully open. Most of those have been centerfire rifle in various calibers, but he does carry a 9mm pistol as a backup and has shot more than a few pigs with it. He says Barnes 115gr +p TAC-XP has been very effective on head shots. For me that's important information, because most of what I'm likely to encounter in this area is thinner skinned than an adult pig.

    Several of us plan to stay in contact and trade information on effectiveness of various loads. A potential field trip is being discussed for later this summer.

  2. #2
    Bill Wilson has shot more than a few hogs in Texas with the Barnes 115 load you reference, and he said it kills them reliably assuming well placed bullets. 5pins did penetration testing with the Underwood Lehigh 115+P penetrator load and Underwood, I believe, hard cast in 9mm. As I recall the hard cast significantly out penetrated the Lehigh bullet.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  3. #3
    I have switched completely to all-copper ammo for all my hunting in both .357 and .308 and have no intention of switching back. It’s just as accurate and effective and while ingestion of lead isn’t a threat to an endangered species here in the PNW, lead frags do sometimes kill individual Bald Eagles. On personal ethical and spiritual level, I want to avoid that.

    You mentioned you used solid cooper rimfire ammo. Which have you tired and how has that worked out for you?
    I was into 10mm Auto before it sold out and went mainstream, but these days I'm here for the revolver and epidemiology information.

  4. #4
    Lead Free bullets have come a LONG way since the introduction of them.

    It is good to see that is continuing.

    Thank You for sharing.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lester Polfus View Post
    I have switched completely to all-copper ammo for all my hunting in both .357 and .308 and have no intention of switching back. It’s just as accurate and effective and while ingestion of lead isn’t a threat to an endangered species here in the PNW, lead frags do sometimes kill individual Bald Eagles. On personal ethical and spiritual level, I want to avoid that.

    You mentioned you used solid cooper rimfire ammo. Which have you tired and how has that worked out for you?
    The 22 LR use was on a 2019 project, a CEQA review on a 3,600 acre parcel in Northern California. CDFW requested that we remove any non-native bullfrogs encountered on the property, and wrote that into our 1602 permit. I handled that request personally Bullfrogs are not native to the west coast, and they eat pretty much anything they can catch and swallow including native frogs and small birds. This particular population was associated with a large creek and they were exceptionally wary. The load used was CCI Copper-22, "21 grain small game." Box rating is 1,850 fps. I was running it through a Browning Buckmark, so probably less than that in this case. Use of a pistol was because this was an oh-by-the-way opportunistic effort while we were doing other more important things, and I needed hands free to climb steep rocky slopes on a very rugged and remote site, photo document, run a GPS, take field notes, etc.

    The load was very effective. Most of the shots were at 20-25 yds and even getting that close required patient stalking. I have a RDS on this pistol, the cheap one made by Browning as an accessory for the Buckmark, and it made this a lot easier. Can't recall the exact number of animals but they all went down with a single shot. All but one of these were big guys, over seven inches. I probably would have used non-lead even if not required, since a miss (there weren't any) would have gone into deep pools in the creek.

    If I had to do this with a larger population for any sustained period of time, I would have used a rifle with a RDS and a light and gone in at night when it's much easier to approach closely. That's exactly what we're looking at doing later this summer, it was one of the tribal biologists who requested assistance and is putting together a "field trip." I also had a request for assistance from a federal agency for a site in the Sierras where they're culling, that one is on hold because of the massive snow up there this year. In both cases it's not so much that they need another shooter, it's the RSO experience they're asking for. Apparently there have been some close calls when volunteer groups go wandering around armed in the dark, and there's a realization that they need to get more serious about safety training.

  6. #6
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    Last year I took 2 eastern NC whitetail deer, both about 120 lbs. each. I was using my .280 Rem with 140gr Accubonds loaded to 2900ish. Both deer took single broadside hits, one at 54 yards and the other at 275. I process my own meat and I'm very meticulous and picky as to what gets by. The first "find" was out of a ham steak. It was a piece of lead approximately 2mm in diameter and 1.5mm thick. The second find came out of "ground" and just a touch bigger in thickness. I found both by biting down on them and can't help but wonder what I and the rest of the fam missed.

    Neither deer should have had an "explosive" expansion with the Accubond with broadside double lunge hits. I try to minimize meat damage with that shot placement. I am in bewilderment on how a bullet frag made it into the ham. I can see where I might have missed a piece in the ground.

    Several years ago, there was an article going around that show x-rays of frozen processed venison that was full of lead particles. I dismissed it as propaganda because of the amount of lead it showed. now I wonder if I should have taken it more seriously back then.

    Things I am changing, first, all hunting rounds will be nonlead and second, I am going to label the package with which animal is in it.

  7. #7
    Great report.

    I haven't hunted as much as I'd like lately, but accuracy is typically around 0.75 MOA with current TSX and TTSX Barnes bullets in the two each 308 and 30-06 rifles that I have on hand right now, both in factory loads and handloads. In handloads, the trick seems to be to move them as fast as you can. Between accuracy and the lack of lead, the remaining cup-and-core bullets in my inventory have been relegated to practice only. That said, monos are longer than cup-and-core bullets so slow twists may not stabilize them. My son's 1:12 Husqvarna 30-06 shoots well with 150-grain TTSX bullets but is barely good for 4 MOA with a 180 TTSX handload that shoots well in two other rifles with 1:10 twist barrels.

    The 130-grain .308" TTSX is getting glowing reports on game as big as elk. Even in the 20" barre l of my Remington 700 Youth Model it shoots faster and flatter than any Federal 270/130 load, which makes it a serious all-around contender.

    The rule of thumb seems to be that you can drop one or two weight classes and get the same results, so if you preferred a 180 in the 30-06, you'll get similar results from a 150- or 165-grain mono. Ron Spomer has an interesting comparison of them at https://www.ronspomeroutdoors.com/bl...rnes-x-bullets

    Users report several things to bear in mind.
    • Monos don't always expand on rib cages and lungs and should be fired into heavy muscle or bone. I habitually shoot for the lungs, so I'll need to train myself out of that.
    • Barnes bullets need about 2,200 fps impact velocity to expand, though this varies somewhat. Most cup-and-core bullets will expand down to 1,700 fps. Check the Barnes site for the velocity that your specific choice requires.
    • High impact velocities mean high muzzle velocities. 2,800 is a good minimum MV unless you're using one built specifically for use at lower velocity. From 2,800 fps MV, most 308 loads run out of steam around 400 yards, and a 150-grain 308 is about the heaviest bullet that people recommend in the 308. You should go to the 30-06 to use 165- and 168-grain Barnes bullets. The 180 TTSX will open at somewhat lower velocities than the lighter bullets, but the 150-, 165-, and 168-grain bullets do so well that there's little need for the 180 until you get to the various 300 Magnums.
    • The 165-grain .308" TTSX has a short ogive and was built for cartridges that require it, namely the 300 WM. The 168-grain TTSX has a longer ogive and works well in the 30-06.

    I mistakenly bought several hundred of the 150-grain .308" TSX about a year ago. Reliable sources claim that they don't open when velocity drops too low, so I'm saving them for game that's typically taken at close range so impact velocity will be closer to muzzle velocity. I shot a smallish hog through the spine with one about a year ago and it performed as it should have, but again, that's a bone hit.

    FWIW, Barnes TTSX factory loads seem to run a little faster than Barnes bullets in ammo from other manufacturers (like Federal). Careful handloading can beat both by 50-100 fps.


    Okie John
    “The reliability of the 30-06 on most of the world’s non-dangerous game is so well established as to be beyond intelligent dispute.” Finn Aagaard
    "Don't fuck with it" seems to prevent the vast majority of reported issues." BehindBlueI's

  8. #8
    Site Supporter PNWTO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by okie john View Post

    I mistakenly bought several hundred of the 150-grain .308" TSX about a year ago. Reliable sources claim that they don't open when velocity drops too low, so I'm saving them for game that's typically taken at close range so impact velocity will be closer to muzzle velocity. I shot a smallish hog through the spine with one about a year ago and it performed as it should have, but again, that's a bone hit.
    The 150s are hanging about .4-.6 MOA from my T3X, if I keep up my end of the bargain. I had heard the same caution but keep my shots under 300yds as a self-imposed rule.

    With the 150s, no bullet recoveries from both a cow elk (215ish yds) and a spike bull (90yds). The cow was a classic engine room hit and the spike was the equivalent of "B zone hit" but neither went more than 25yds from getting the poke. A friend loads the 80gr TTSX in his .243 T3 and has positive reports on a few deer, two elk, and a black bear; all distances under 150yds.

    I'm all about the mono loads for field/hunting. If the cost wasn't mildly punitive for practice I would explore some of the monolithic loads for social purposes; I would like to minimize as much lead as possible.

    A reliable all-copper .22 LR load has me very interested.
    "Do nothing which is of no use." -Musashi

    What would TR do? TRCP BHA

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by PNWTO View Post
    The 150s are hanging about .4-.6 MOA from my T3X, if I keep up my end of the bargain. I had heard the same caution but keep my shots under 300yds as a self-imposed rule.
    Was that for the TSX or the TTSX?

    Quote Originally Posted by PNWTO View Post
    A reliable all-copper .22 LR load has me very interested.
    Same. But what I really want to know is how a regular guy like me could get in on a bullfrog cull.


    Okie John
    “The reliability of the 30-06 on most of the world’s non-dangerous game is so well established as to be beyond intelligent dispute.” Finn Aagaard
    "Don't fuck with it" seems to prevent the vast majority of reported issues." BehindBlueI's

  10. #10
    Site Supporter PNWTO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by okie john View Post
    Was that for the TSX or the TTSX?
    TTSX

    [But what I really want to know is how a regular guy like me could get in on a bullfrog cull.

    For our state, the mildly-feasible route for any management activities would be to get in thick with the Master Hunter Program and then see if the APHIS office(s) take volunteers/contractors. Not sure they do.

    I wonder if the wildlife crew at the Cle Elum Ranger Station still cruise around and blast Barred Owls with shotguns?
    "Do nothing which is of no use." -Musashi

    What would TR do? TRCP BHA

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