Snubs - Expert's Gun?

[Mister X]

Autos are generally more finicky when it comes running a compromised grip. Snubs have less grip to hold onto. There's no free lunch. The objective doctrinally that I teach, is to use wrestling and BJJ to control position so one can attain the proper grip. It's really not an ECQ shooting problem so much as it is a grappling problem with a gun.

Contact shots are really not something I advocate for. The better practice is to retract the pistol back to a retention position to fire, not jam the gun into someone's body. We call that "floating the gun" and usually it makes a weapons retention problem worse when people do it. I've seen plenty of people jam a snub into someone to make a contact shot and the adversary fights back by grabbing the pistol and binding the cylinder. Dead gun just like an auto pistol out of battery.

I keep a cache' of about 200 rounds or so of 38 sim in my work bag for anyone that wants to run a snub in an evolution and I'm probably one of the few guys that actually has that ammo for students to use in their guns. Based on my observations over 21 years of running evolutions with 38 sim rounds in those guns and realistically that's probably....150 of them?...I stand by what I said. @Totem Polar ran one in one of his ECQCs at one point.

What about those who may no longer be so able-bodied to effectively utilize H2H skills? Would you say the hardware then matters to a greater degree in their case, with perhaps the snub possibly being the preferred choice in those types of scenarios?

[Cecil Burch]

What about those who may no longer be so able-bodied to effectively utilize H2H skills? Would you say the hardware then matters to a greater degree in their case, with perhaps the snub possibly being the preferred choice in those types of scenarios?

No, because there is no path that leads to hardware being a reliable and consistent answer. In the case where someone has such a physical handicap that they cannot utilize any H2H ability (something that is such a black swan, but for the sake of the argument I will not go into that), then their pre-fight threat containment skills must be running permanently at a perfect level so they don't get into contact.

The problem is that regardless of how great your pre-fight skills are, there will come a moment when your guard is down. Hopefully that does not occur when you can't afford it. But no matter what, you need software of some kind to keep from losing either before or during the fight. Hardware has little impact there.

[Mister X]

No, because there is no path that leads to hardware being a reliable and consistent answer. In the case where someone has such a physical handicap that they cannot utilize any H2H ability (something that is such a black swan, but for the sake of the argument I will not go into that), then their pre-fight threat containment skills must be running permanently at a perfect level so they don't get into contact.

The problem is that regardless of how great your pre-fight skills are, there will come a moment when your guard is down. Hopefully that does not occur when you can't afford it. But no matter what, you need software of some kind to keep from losing either before or during the fight. Hardware has little impact there.

One type of person I have in mind is someone like my 79 year old mother. She’s lives alone now, is independent, still engages in a fairly socially active life, although she does currently walk with a cane and is somewhat unsteady on her feet.

She took a course and got her permit a few years back and carries a S&W 442 in a purse designed for concealed carry. She has zero interest in any type of semi-auto and I just can’t imagine her using one effectively in any scenario, and I’m not sure how safe she would be with one. She will run a cylinder or two through the snub about once a year at best and does OK with it at close-range with standard pressure ammo, and I’ll talk her into dry-firing it occasionally.

She does try to pay attention to her surroundings when out and about best she can, but I imagine there’s a lot of holes. The snub still seems like a better solution for someone like her from my perspective, but that’s just me. I guess it doesn’t really matter anyway, because I know she’s not ever giving up her snub.

Mom does understand the basic concept of retention shooting, but in terms of H2H skills, some sort of default cover while accessing her gun is about the most I would expect of her and you’re not likely going to see her in an ECQ course anyone soon. I think it was Karl Rehn who admonished me many years ago for my attitude and “over-reliance” on athleticism and physical skills, asserting that age, injury and illness will eventually get the better of even the mightiest among us and that will require an ever increasing need to rely on our tools. It seems to me the choice of hardware can make a significant difference, especially as our physical skills deteriorate over time. Now having surpassed the half-century mark, I can appreciate that sentiment. YMMV

[BK14]

One type of person I have in mind is someone like my 79 year old mother. She’s lives alone now, is independent, still engages in a fairly socially active life, although she does currently walk with a cane and is somewhat unsteady on her feet.

She took a course and got her permit a few years back and carries a S&W 442 in a purse designed for concealed carry. She has zero interest in any type of semi-auto and I just can’t imagine her using one effectively in any scenario, and I’m not sure how safe she would be with one. She will run a cylinder or two through the snub about once a year at best and does OK with it at close-range with standard pressure ammo, and I’ll talk her into dry-firing it occasionally.

She does try to pay attention to her surroundings when out and about best she can, but I imagine there’s a lot of holes. The snub still seems like a better solution for someone like her from my perspective, but that’s just me. I guess it doesn’t really matter anyway, because I know she’s not ever giving up her snub.

Mom does understand the basic concept of retention shooting, but in terms of H2H skills, some sort of default cover while accessing her gun is about the most I would expect of her and you’re not likely going to see her in an ECQ course anyone soon. I think it was Karl Rehn who admonished me many years ago for my attitude and “over-reliance” on athleticism and physical skills, asserting that age, injury and illness will eventually get the better of even the mightiest among us and that will require an ever increasing need to rely on our tools. It seems to me the choice of hardware can make a significant difference, especially as our physical skills deteriorate over time. Now having surpassed the half-century mark, I can appreciate that sentiment. YMMV

I would ask if the snub is actually the best answer, or if maybe just a revolver is the best answer? Would she not likely perform better with a slightly longer grip, more capacity, and better sights, maybe a little more weight, like the 856? I think that it’s easier to build performance with a gun that’s easier to shoot, and in my experience, the airlight snubs are about the hardest guns for me to build performance with.

[42Willys]

This is a great thread, and I am grateful to OP and all contributors.

Is the snub an expert’s gun? My opinion is yes, but also no.

The S&W airweight J frame (642) was, for years, one of my primary defensive firearms, including for carry. I have a lot more options now but I still carry an airweight j frame or airweight k frame snub quite a lot. Can an expert wring maximum performance out of a snub? Absolutely, but that is true of all weapons. If one doesn’t practice, one won’t be as proficient.

Revolvers have a lot to recommend them to the novice, including safety, ease of clearing, and dry fire. Not to mention the fact that you could leave a revolver in a drawer, ignore it for 10 years, and pick it up at demand and expect it to shoot. And snub revolvers are easy to have on hand in an emergency.

I love the idea of a lower recoil snub for a novice - .22 lr or magnum, or .32 caliber. A low recoil .38 option is also a good compromise. These can also be fine guns for an expert to carry. I think more affordable .22 and .32 snubs (along with more .32 ammo availability) would be great for casual gun owners. Failing that, a novice should be advised to select the right ammo for a .38 snub for recoil reduction, without being shamed.

[SouthNarc]

One type of person I have in mind is someone like my 79 year old mother. She’s lives alone now, is independent, still engages in a fairly socially active life, although she does currently walk with a cane and is somewhat unsteady on her feet.

She took a course and got her permit a few years back and carries a S&W 442 in a purse designed for concealed carry. She has zero interest in any type of semi-auto and I just can’t imagine her using one effectively in any scenario, and I’m not sure how safe she would be with one. She will run a cylinder or two through the snub about once a year at best and does OK with it at close-range with standard pressure ammo, and I’ll talk her into dry-firing it occasionally.

She does try to pay attention to her surroundings when out and about best she can, but I imagine there’s a lot of holes. The snub still seems like a better solution for someone like her from my perspective, but that’s just me. I guess it doesn’t really matter anyway, because I know she’s not ever giving up her snub.

Mom does understand the basic concept of retention shooting, but in terms of H2H skills, some sort of default cover while accessing her gun is about the most I would expect of her and you’re not likely going to see her in an ECQ course anyone soon. I think it was Karl Rehn who admonished me many years ago for my attitude and “over-reliance” on athleticism and physical skills, asserting that age, injury and illness will eventually get the better of even the mightiest among us and that will require an ever increasing need to rely on our tools. It seems to me the choice of hardware can make a significant difference, especially as our physical skills deteriorate over time. Now having surpassed the half-century mark, I can appreciate that sentiment. YMMV

That's a great question and I think it boils down to is there a difference in success with revolver versus and auto pistol when it comes to a "hail Mary" shove the gun in their gut and start blasting?

Maybe...

But I do see cylinder binding stopping revolvers too.

[Mister X]

I would ask if the snub is actually the best answer, or if maybe just a revolver is the best answer? Would she not likely perform better with a slightly longer grip, more capacity, and better sights, maybe a little more weight, like the 856? I think that it’s easier to build performance with a gun that’s easier to shoot, and in my experience, the airlight snubs are about the hardest guns for me to build performance with.

Anything bigger and heavier and she simply won’t carry it. An exposed hammer/single action is not really an overall great idea either IMO. Even for home defense, the airweight snub makes pretty good sense for her. She can slip it in the pocket of her house robe if need be, and the basic plan in the event of a home invasion is for her to take refuge in her walk-in bedroom closet behind a locked door, so maximum shot range is about 3 feet. Much of the same applies for my wife.

There’s an old article by Mas Ayoob entitled “The real ladies handgun”, which is likely pooh-poohed by most of the tacticool cats, but I think it’s still very much relevant for the majority of women today looking for practical and realistic solutions to personal defense…

https://forums.usacarry.com/threads/...s.11626/?amp=1

[gato naranja]

I love the idea of a lower recoil snub for a novice - .22 lr or magnum, or .32 caliber. A low recoil .38 option is also a good compromise. These can also be fine guns for an expert to carry. I think more affordable .22 and .32 snubs (along with more .32 ammo availability) would be great for casual gun owners. Failing that, a novice should be advised to select the right ammo for a .38 snub for recoil reduction, without being shamed.

Novices... and stove-up geezers like myself. I fall into the low-recoil .38 load in a snub club, and if anyone throws shade on me for it, I congratulate them on still being able to stress their joints without consequences. One of the pleasant changes in 50 years of shooting is the new shooter - a female as often than not - who has done some homework and knows that there are no free lunches despite what some local loudmouth hanging about the premises tells them.

Now for an unpleasant change: it frosts my ass that the old Nyclad load hasn't been resurrected by some one (hey- third time is a charm). I finally shot through my stash of it, and target wadcutters are not the same thing.

[Mister X]

But I do see cylinder binding stopping revolvers too.

Could a fair degree of that be due to who you’re seeing do it in your classes. Nobody just accidentally wanders into a Craig Douglas ECQC class. I wouldn’t imagine most in the demographics that I’m likely to find myself in an entangled gunfight with are really all that familiar with the functionality of revolvers? Just a guess though.

[SouthNarc]

Could a fair degree of that be due to who you’re seeing do it in your classes. Nobody just accidentally wanders into a Craig Douglas ECQC class. I wouldn’t imagine most in the demographics that I’m likely to find myself in an entangled gunfight with are really all that familiar with the functionality of revolvers? Just a guess though.

That’s a fair point too but it’s not just the idea that someone is grabbing the cylinder specifically because they know that tactic will inhibit a revolver’s mechanism. When we actually do this with sim on bodies with revolvers it’s just never as clean as it is on a piece of cardboard. I’ve seen people actually bind a cylinder with their own bodies crunched up on another person.

The revolver may be a BIT more reliable in running entangled. But not much.