Where To Aim

[HCM]

To the OP, we have used the photo targets at work in the past. Gunsite has these and similar targets in their simulators in the past, but as @HCM notes, few people will or can access these resources. Scary situations, but I’d do my best to focus on the high chest throat area and moving as @HCM suggested earlier, anticipating multiple controlled shots, maybe even closing for more precision-just speculating…
In a separate thread there was some discussion about USState Dept. quals; no movement there(should there be?). Off the top of my head, the only tests I know where there is shooter movement is on the US Marine MEU SOC qual and the Glock Operator Standards. There have been some earlier quals where one stepped sideways to a barricade or such, but not a lot of movement. So, moving shooters and targets is going to take some institutional effort, usually tax supported. There are practical competitions available to qualified citizens like IPSC/USPSA/IDPA that are helpful. Some private instructors like Hackathorn had drills involving movement. The one I took years ago we did a sort of box drill on several steel IPSC targets, forward sideways and backing up. Conversely, Farnam is of the opinion that if you move, move. You want to shoot, stop and deliver accurately. Pros and cons to each.
A thought is one could practice movement dry with a laser mounted to frame at home. I’ve done it with my TLR8s to see how movement affects weapon movement but I’m an admitted nerd…

Quals are tests. Specifically CYA tests for agencies. Not training.

It’s a lot easier to squeeze in some movement training versus making movement a requirement. Part of that as a resource thing and part of that is some administrators only care about pass rates not actual capability.

Moving (more than a step) and then stopping to shoot (as in most practical shooting) is not the same as shooting on the move but it’s definitely superior to the 100% static shooting most experience. Both SOM and shoot then move have their place.

[1Rangemaster]

Quals are tests. Specifically CYA tests for agencies. Not training.

It’s a lot easier to squeeze in some movement training versus making movement a requirement. Part of that as a resource thing and part of that is some administrators only care about pass rates not actual capability.

Moving (more than a step) and then stopping to shoot (as in most practical shooting) is not the same as shooting on the move but it’s definitely superior to the 100% static shooting most experience. Both SOM and shoot then move have their place.

Concur, sir. But if it’s trained, my thought would be to test at least some aspect, hence my mention of MEUSOC, etc.
I’ve shot a handful of stages over the years where a practical cardboard target was on a swinger/dropper/flopper and movement would cut your stage time down. Those were instructive to me for balancing speed of movement an accuracy(and no penalties for the rounds missing and heading down range…)
Admin heads would probably explode for a variety of reasons.

[DDTSGM]

Based on all of the force on force reps I've done I can not ever remember instinctually aiming anywhere other than center mass unless a hostage/hostage taker was at play when using a pistol.

That mirrors my FOF experience as well.

This ^^.

Time is a factor and people move. A threat can easily move their head enough that you miss the small portion of the head that actually provides an instant stop. The head can move quicker and easier than the rest of the body.

A really commonly noticed occurrence during force-on-force scenarios and during simulator training are shoots impacting the weapon. A lot of these MAY be explained away as ingrained center mass aiming, but I'd wager in most cases focus was on the weapon.

Anyhow, our role players were always bitching about their hands getting beat up - actually a form of humble bragging

[HCM]

A really commonly noticed occurrence during force-on-force scenarios and during simulator training are shoots impacting the weapon. A lot of these MAY be explained away as ingrained center mass aiming, but I'd wager in most cases focus was on the weapon.

Anyhow, our role players were always bitching about their hands getting beat up - actually a form of humble bragging

It doesn’t just happen in FOF….

[DDTSGM]

Concur, sir. But if it’s trained, my thought would be to test at least some aspect, hence my mention of MEUSOC, etc.

This is just my opinion, based on my experiences.

I'm loathe to say that everything trained should be put into a qualification.

Let me put some flesh on that. During my career I had the opportunity to demonstrate and discuss use of force issues in front of many varied groups running the gamut from citizens and special interest groups, the media, government officials, coroner's inquests, grand juries, and state and federal court.

When there is interaction allowed - dog and pony shows, coroner's inquests, grand juries, media - a common question asked was some form of 'why don't you shoot to wound?'

Generally the response is going to contain something along the lines of 'these are very stressful, rapidly evolving situations, often with moving targets, officers have the duty to protect the citizens and often that means immediately stopping the threat, in such circumstances..... and blatter on about the effects of stress in such situations.

My thought is that if you have a qualification target or qualification course of fire that requires hits to a precision area - the pelvis, or the head as in failure drills - you are opening the door for discussion in court, before a jury, about whether, therefore, such precision should be expected.

Maybe I'm the instructor who cried 'wolf' but one of my considerations for anything we trained was 'how could I rip it apart as an opposing expert witness.'

Let me be clear, I'm not saying don't train headshots, I'm just saying don't make them a part of your qual course.

JMO YMMV greatly.

[Utm]

A really commonly noticed occurrence during force-on-force scenarios and during simulator training are shoots impacting the weapon. A lot of these MAY be explained away as ingrained center mass aiming, but I'd wager in most cases focus was on the weapon.

Anyhow, our role players were always bitching about their hands getting beat up - actually a form of humble bragging

I think that is just closer to natural point of aim for most. However, I can tell you I actively aim and see the dot on bad guy unless they are a few feet away

[DDTSGM]

I think that is just closer to natural point of aim for most. However, I can tell you I actively aim and see the dot on bad guy unless they are a few feet away

I see my sights also, but I've done a lot more FoF than the average guy and put a lot more rounds downrange than the average officer does in their career.

That's one of the issues when we discuss things like this, we are often more proficient than the average bear.

[BK14]

Yup. The headshot answer sounds good, until you consider the movement, and the liability to the public.

For the top guy, an explosive lateral movement while aiming high-thoracic center mass would be ideal.

For the bottom one, that’s where it’s going to matter what you do a lot more. The typical range theatric single side-step lateral for either direction potentially puts one of the pedestrians in a worse position. A large lateral might shift them out of your backdrop, but now you have a business or school on one side, with school busses on the other. I know that the pelvic girdle shot is often maligned, but this is one of a handful of contexts where I would consider pushing rounds low to angle them towards more solid backstops of either the wheels/chassis of the bus, or the foundation of the building.

Like all things, hard to make a “100%” answer without knowing more info, but that’s what came to mind when I saw those.

[BK14]

I think that is just closer to natural point of aim for most. However, I can tell you I actively aim and see the dot on bad guy unless they are a few feet away

I’ve played the bad guy a lot more than being the good guy for FoF over the last couple years. I got sick of getting shot in the hand, so I started to offset the gun away from my center mass, away from my body (I’m the bad guy, I don’t care about round accountability, right?). Even with this, I’ve still been shot in the hand a lot of times. The worst was getting shot one in the gun hand, held away from my body, and one on both thighs…. Nowhere else….

[HCM]

I’ve played the bad guy a lot more than being the good guy for FoF over the last couple years. I got sick of getting shot in the hand, so I started to offset the gun away from my center mass, away from my body (I’m the bad guy, I don’t care about round accountability, right?). Even with this, I’ve still been shot in the hand a lot of times. The worst was getting shot one in the gun hand, held away from my body, and one on both thighs…. Nowhere else….

Hard shell motor cross gloves help.