Where To Aim

[camsdaddy]

This is one of the most thought provoking threads Ive read in a while. I think my initial thought would be in the face. I then look at the target which I would not have the luxury to study in a real scenario and realize I would probably shoot them in the hand. All of the stuff you normally want to poke holes in is covered by a gun or arm or hands. At that point penetration comes to mind. Are the bullets able to go through the bones to get to important things? I normally think of ribs and meat and this adds a few layers of bone.

[WobblyPossum]

This is one of the most thought provoking threads Ive read in a while. I think my initial thought would be in the face. I then look at the target which I would not have the luxury to study in a real scenario and realize I would probably shoot them in the hand. All of the stuff you normally want to poke holes in is covered by a gun or arm or hands. At that point penetration comes to mind. Are the bullets able to go through the bones to get to important things? I normally think of ribs and meat and this adds a few layers of bone.

That’s exactly why selecting ammunition that does well in the FBI protocol testing is important for private citizens too, not just law enforcement. Ammunition that does well in the windshield portion generally does well when having to go through bone too. Bone is the primary intermediate barrier everyone has to deal with.

[HCM]

This is just my opinion, based on my experiences.

I'm loathe to say that everything trained should be put into a qualification.

Let me put some flesh on that. During my career I had the opportunity to demonstrate and discuss use of force issues in front of many varied groups running the gamut from citizens and special interest groups, the media, government officials, coroner's inquests, grand juries, and state and federal court.

When there is interaction allowed - dog and pony shows, coroner's inquests, grand juries, media - a common question asked was some form of 'why don't you shoot to wound?'

Generally the response is going to contain something along the lines of 'these are very stressful, rapidly evolving situations, often with moving targets, officers have the duty to protect the citizens and often that means immediately stopping the threat, in such circumstances..... and blatter on about the effects of stress in such situations.

My thought is that if you have a qualification target or qualification course of fire that requires hits to a precision area - the pelvis, or the head as in failure drills - you are opening the door for discussion in court, before a jury, about whether, therefore, such precision should be expected.

Maybe I'm the instructor who cried 'wolf' but one of my considerations for anything we trained was 'how could I rip it apart as an opposing expert witness.'

Let me be clear, I'm not saying don't train headshots, I'm just saying don't make them a part of your qual course.

JMO YMMV greatly.

My agency Qual includes two to the body, one to the head at 7 yards from the holster, and then again from a ready position. It’s captioned as the “body armor / cover” stage. My understanding is the thought process is to prevent assertions that intentionally taking a headshot was somehow improper.

That said, I agree with you, that not everything you train should be part of the standard qualification.

My experience has been that making something testable works with recruits in Academy setting but we get more buy in from in service shooters with familiarizations.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Just a shot in the hand report. Got shot in outside dark FOF at Rehn's with a Code Eagle. The paint was red, so it gave me a start for a second. Also, I lent a revolver to another student, got the gun back with paint all over the front of the cylinder. Just saying.

About what to do here, not my lane to say what is optimal. COM and then head - if I am not dead by then. Civilian guess from classes and FOF.

[DDTSGM]

It doesn’t just happen in FOF….

I know, the first shooting I testified on the officer's first shot nearly hit the gun the guy had pointed at him, and did mess up his hand.

We also saw the same thing on our old 'Duel-A-Tron' system with the cartoon targets and also on our use-of-force simulators.

Seems that if identifying a threat is part of the decision making process, that naturally would be where the focus is and where shots fired in response would hit. There is seemingly a lot of anecdotal evidence to support that conclusion.

[G19Fan]

Louis Awerbuck taught a technique in very close quarter shooting with an unmanageable backstop hazard.
You take a large step forward to close some distance as you drop to one knee. The villain is then at a slight angle above your line of fire, his line of fire is now angled downward, so both backstop problems are lessened. With DVC ,some serious self possession, and a healthy chunk of luck, you headbone him.
Best case, only he and you get shot. Worst case, only you get shot. So it's an improvement on everyone getting shot.

This man was such a great instructor.

[G19Fan]

You also made yourself immobile and probably increased your chance of getting shot in the head because you replaced your center mass with your face

Agreed the technique is more to ensuring those around aren't shot.

[DueSpada]

The nose, to transit the nasal cavity and smash the base of the skull. They will pull the trigger before they bleed to death.

[OfficeCat]

This is one of the most thought provoking threads Ive read in a while. I think my initial thought would be in the face. I then look at the target which I would not have the luxury to study in a real scenario and realize I would probably shoot them in the hand. All of the stuff you normally want to poke holes in is covered by a gun or arm or hands. At that point penetration comes to mind. Are the bullets able to go through the bones to get to important things? I normally think of ribs and meat and this adds a few layers of bone.

Just saw this for the first time and I'm with you all the way on this, from the thought provoking nature of the thread to the concern about penetration. I have to ask myself, how did it get to this point? What has happened in the seconds leading up to this moment? If I've not already drawn, I'm not going to do it now. One hundred percent certain I'm going to get shot if I draw now, but there's still a chance for de-escalation if I don't. So assuming I drew before the gun was aimed at me, and the guy just turned to face me and raised his gun, I'm in pure reaction mode and I'm shooting where my gun was already aimed or on its way to being aimed - center mass. In that case the first guy is most likely taking my first round through his forearm and the second guy is getting it through the hand and/or his gun.

[D-der]

Very interesting, insightful thread, I'm not LE, just a guy that work's / lives rural'y and wants to go home...and has liked to hunt and shoot my whole life. I guess image one I'd side step and initially go for between the support hand thumb and watch band, I've had that view of a 12 bore with a drunk behind it at 8-10 yd's and it's pretty f'n intimidating, target #2 COM would seem logical.
Thanks for the education.