Traditional DoubleStack Vs Micro Concealment/Comfort

[G19Fan]

G45 to a P365 Tacops. So far, I’m seeing same performance in a thinner package.

I’ll know for sure next time I run USPSA. Going wide open typically shakes out issues.

Regards.

I think you will be pleased by the p365 tac ops results

[Evil_Ed]

The critical dimension for me, shootability-wise, is trigger break point to backstrap. I need enough trigger reach to run a gun consistently. The micros are too short here with the exception of the Glock slimline nines, and those don’t carry “smaller” enough versus a 19 or 26 that it’s worth the known sacrifice in reliability. The short trigger reach on a P365 makes it shoot as awkwardly as a Kel-Tec or LCP in my hands (big palms, average fingers), which leads to poor performance on the shot timer.

When I want or need to carry extra light or deep carry, I would rather have an Airlite J-frame in a pocket. It’s hard to beat knowing that the pocket gun will cycle through dirt and pocket lint so long as I can move the trigger.

When I want the most concealable belt gun possible, I gravitate to a PPK or P230 (and used to gravitate towards a P239 when I had one). These guns carry small but “shoot” larger, with more traditional trigger reach and front-to-back grip spans than the polymer micro-compacts. They carry half the rounds of the newer guns, but I’m not living in a place, going places, or dealing with people in my daily life that make me worry “10+ rounds is a prudent minimum.” When I travel or feel like I need “more,” I can easily go back to the service-sized and compact-service guns I have been concealing for almost 15 years.

This is an extremely important and oft overlooked thing in the quest for "smaller"...having found this out the hard way. I wear XL-sized gloves (or larger, depending on where in Asia they come from) and a LOT of the micro-compacts have triggers that for me are very much like trying to press a button in the middle of your palm with your trigger finger. You can do it, once, twice maybe...but doing it with consistency more than that takes a LOT of effort and training - not to mention after a while it's just straight up uncomfortable to contort that way. At least, for me. I remember picking up a 365 and realizing that there was just no way I could shoot that thing as is without a much larger grip module...

FWIW - the other day I had to attend a funeral, in a suit. I tucked a Beretta PX4 Compact in a JMCK AIWB under my dress shirt and tucked the shirt taut - I could not make it print. I couldn't have hid a Walther PPS or a J-Frame any better, and the PX4 Compact is a "full sized compact" with 15+1. It was also so comfortable that I literally forgot I had it on, which was interesting when I took off my suit coat to throw in the back of the car when I went to drive home...not realizing my OWB reload was plainly visible for a minute or so while I was outside the car screwing around...

[CraigS]

To me thin doesn't do much. Here is why. I carry M&P9 compact in a Crossbreed hybrid holster on my hip. I am old fart who wears loose shirts untucked 98% of the time. The 3 times per year I have to dress coat and tie, I carry a Keltec PF9 (similar size to original Shield) so I can see that for some a thin gun is important. What is more important to me is height. Even in the flat back cushion Honda Pilot I slide the holster a little forward so the bottom of the grip isn't jammed into the seat back. In the Stingray or Mustang, w/ much more side bolster, I switch to a different holster w/ a lot more cant. I also go back to a stock 12 rnd mag from my more usual 15 rnd mag. It would suck to try a fast draw from that cant angle but I console myself that it is better than not carrying at all. BTW LF pocket always has a spare 15 rnd mag in a pouch.

[BillSWPA]

There is a huge difference between carrying for a single occasion requiring a certain dress code and carrying all day, every day under those circumstances.

I am self-employed, so I get to dress as I want and carry what I want. I still dress business casual in case a client unexpectedly visits, and do not want to wear a jacket every day when the temperature is 80F to 90F.

This is where a small, capable gun like a P365 is worth its weight in gold.

[Polecat]

I think there is a sweet spot, which more will hopefully embrace. The Sig Macro is kinda the leader in this group, but I think it opens it up, at least conceptually. Take the HK VP for example, I believe it was designed to accomodate the .40. Well, if you took the frame and slide down just a bit, it would make it better handling with preserved ergos, but just a bit lighter and more slim. Dream gun is a VP compact the size of P2000, but slimmer.

[G19Fan]

There is a huge difference between carrying for a single occasion requiring a certain dress code and carrying all day, every day under those circumstances.

I am self-employed, so I get to dress as I want and carry what I want. I still dress business casual in case a client unexpectedly visits, and do not want to wear a jacket every day when the temperature is 80F to 90F.

This is where a small, capable gun like a P365 is worth its weight in gold.

Agreed I feel like a p365xl or xl macro is perfect for the majority of people

[Lost River]

I just repled to a different thread with essentially the same comments. I live in a state that limits magazine capacity to 10 rounds, so more than that in any gun for EDC consideration is pointless in CT.

My overall favorite gun among what I own is my G27 Gen5, which is absolutely reliable (as is every Glock I've ever shot) as well as accurate enough (consistent 2" groups at 7 yards), having reasonable recoil for what it is, and small enough to fit nicely in my safe. What it's not imho is thin or light enough for comfortable EDC. I love the 40 caliber cartridge, as I think it's light enough and offers adequate capacity while being plenty powerful enough. But there's that size issue for EDC.

So I started looking into 9mm, and have concluded that the newest generation of 9mm cartridges offers adequate performance. I looked at the G43 but liked the Sig P365 way better (equally reliable and accurate but thinner and smaller and holds 10+1 vs. 7+1), so that's my new EDC and the G27 stays at home.

Do you need anything larger or with greater magazine capacity for civilian EDC? Why? No judge or jury will accept a self-defense claim if you shoot someone 50 feet away - you could have escaped. 25 feet is about the max, and even that far away would be seriously questioned. So a longer barrel/sight radius is irrelevant. Do you need greater capacity? Refer to my previous comments. Can you handle the recoil of a smaller gun? This is a reasonable argument, but this is for EDC, not a range toy. Train with it, get confident with it, keep training regularly to hone your skill, and it should suffice.

Finally, why carry a 2-lb. hand cannon for year after year, when it's most likely you will ever need to actually defend your life with it once or perhaps twice in your entire life? A micro 9 with good performance and adequate (10+1 round) capacity is more than sufficient 99% of the time, and that last 1% is about the same as your risk of being struck by lightning. The proliferation of excellent micro 9 pistols now for sale makes this type of gun a most excellent choice for EDC. I can't see the value of carrying anything larger on a regular basis.

Why?

Because when I get into a gunfight, I want a handgun that I can perform optimally with. Not a talisman. Not a "probably going to be good enough based on manipulated statistics" tiny gun. I want a handgun that I am absolutely willing to (from a performance standpoint) engage 1 possibly 2 bad guys. For me, I absolutely want a gun that, if need be, I can drop a threat at a range further than 50 feet. There are plenty of incidents of people doing harm to others that have been engaged at distances further than 50 feet. No shortage of active shooters with rifles these days.

I will direct quote this" No judge or jury will accept a self-defense claim if you shoot someone 50 feet away - you could have escaped. 25 feet is about the max,"

I wholeheartedly disagree. I don't know anyone, who can walk or run away faster than a bullet. Shootings are highly fluid/dynamic and mobile situations. You may not have the option of just "walking away". If I have my children with me, and there is an active shooter shooting people, there is absolutely NO WAY I am going to put my back to him/them along with the backs of my children and "just walk away". Not a chance.

The shooter may in fact be younger and far more athletic than I am. The old " I will just leave" theory really does not work out so well in reality when the criminal is younger, faster and stronger. There are a LOT of videos of young men (criminals) running and shooting either at each other or at the police. These young men are much faster than I am (or probably ever was) and I am not about to turn my back on them.

People tend to carry micro guns that they do not shoot well, but they offset that by telling themselves "statistics". To each their own.



Today I made sure one of the guns I use for both trail and town is zeroed at 50 yards.




I know where it hits at 5 yards, 25 yards and 50 yards.

[Lost River]

A Glock 19 is the absolute last gun I would sell, unless I had a half dozen of them!

Yep,

I think the G19 is the answer to 90+% of "what gun" questions.

[feudist]

[QUOTE=Lost River;1485168]Yep,

I think the G19 is the answer to 90+% of "what gun" questions.





It's where all the lines cross. Bigger or smaller, thinner or lighter, you give up a lot to get a little better than the 19.

[mmc45414]

IMO recent releases have cause the terminology to become a little fuzzy, and I would not refer to many of the pistols being discussed here as "Micro".

I guess I consider something not being micro if my entire hand fits onto it, and just because something is thinner doesn't necessarily mean I will shoot it poorly. In my personal case I went through an evolution with the Shield, starting with a .40 (when I was primarily loading and shooting .40), then transitioned to the 9mm (when I started primarily loading and shooting 9mm), but ultimately went with the .45 when I figured out that it was a just a wee bit bigger, big enough to fit all three fingers without the extend magazine or a extended floorplate. And I shot all of them reasonably well, but found myself not carrying them very often. They were just not that much easier to carry than the M&P Compact (15+1) or M&P Subcompact (12+1). And if I wanted something smaller than the Subcompact I wanted something lighter (probably means no belt) and the Shield (20.5oz empty, 6+1) got passed over for the J-Frame 360PD (11.8oz empty, 5+0, grips big enough for all three fingers). So in the big purge to fund buying an RL1100 I sold the third Shield.

The second thing I think defines micro is if the action is so tiny it has to source any springs from the Swingline factory. Like that original LCP I had...

The third thing in my micro definition is if it is so tiny it cannot accept reasonable sights. My three Shields all had the same sight as my compact M&Ps.

But now we have the 365 and Shield Plus and G43, and the Shield Plus is probably going to be my next purchase. The SIG might be the better option, but at this point I admit being an M&P fanboi. Also the 365 looks to be around $550 and the Shield is closer to $350, and I know with the 365 I would buy one of the Wilson grips, since easy interchangeability is what makes it cool. And I already have a spare set of sights for the Shield. Pretty quick the Shield starts looking like half price. And I asked a buddy to bring his to our Sunday gathering a couple of weeks ago, and I can shoot it pretty well, including at reasonable distance.

We also now have the Enigma. I never bothered getting one for a J-Frame, but the Shield Plus/Enigma combo sounds like a perfect walk the dogs in the park solution.