And if it was a POA issue I’d expect low hits on all three targets.Originally Posted by Serpico1985
The fact it goes away when you have him prep the trigger and react to the timer instead of breaking the shot on his own leads me to suspect anticipation or the wrist issue posted up thread. Hard to say which without seeing him shoot.
Appreciate the info guys.
For the others who shot his gun and hit POA/POI, we’re they also using the same sight picture he does or were they using the drive-the-dot sight picture?
My posts only represent my personal opinion and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or official policies of any employer, past or present. Obvious spelling errors are likely the result of an iPhone keyboard.
Why? He used different holds, and the only rounds that went low were when using the incorrect hold. When he used the correct hold, he didn't shoot low. That's not really indicative of pushing the muzzle. What would be indicative of pushing the muzzle is if he were low on all strings, which is not what we see here.
In addition, pushing the muzzle usually results 1) in a much greater shift in POI, whereas this is minor and lines up exactly with the difference between using the incorrect and correct holds, and 2) pushing the muzzle usually doesn't result in such high consistency with the grouping.
As for the new info from Serpico about him using the Dot-over-target hold at 25, I'm also still suspicious that he actually is. What we see institutionally is lizard brain activity; a person thinks they're doing one thing, when they're actually doing another because their lizard brain takes over and they start reverting to what is ingrained. It appears this problem only started when he started shooting the Gen 5 with Ameriglos, just like we've observed institutionally. I'd be curious what his SIRT pistol's POA/POI is regulated to. Just like I guessed, "Hmm, I bet he's shooting Ameriglo Agent sights....", I'm going to guess that his SIRT is not regulated to a dot-over-target hold, and he's been unknowingly reinforcing the improper POA.
So, we know from multiple agencies that this is an observed phenomenon by institutional shooters when going from one POA/POI to another. What we see here is a guy displaying shooting characteristics that are consistent with that, and shooting that is not consistent with muzzle push in terms of severity and consistency. Occams Razor, and all. IDK. He probably just sucks and needs to be told not to push the muzzle, because that's obviously worked out so well over the last 6 years.
Last edited by TGS; 05-27-2023 at 05:06 PM.
"Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer
To help tease out whether it is sights, trigger, grip, or something else, I would love him to shoot someone else's zeroed iron sight and red dot Glock 17.
Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.
Where are you getting that he is using a different hold on the center and right targets? That’s not what the OP says.Why? He used different holds, and the only rounds that went low were when using the incorrect hold. When he used the correct hold, he didn't shoot low. That's not really indicative of pushing the muzzle. What would be indicative of pushing the muzzle is if he were low on all strings, which is not what we see here.
In addition, pushing the muzzle usually results 1) in a much greater shift in POI, whereas this is minor and lines up exactly with the difference between using the incorrect and correct holds, and 2) pushing the muzzle usually doesn't result in such high consistency with the grouping.
As for the new info from Serpico about him using the Dot-over-target hold at 25, I'm also still suspicious that he actually is. What we see institutionally is lizard brain activity; a person thinks they're doing one thing, when they're actually doing another because their lizard brain takes over and they start reverting to what is ingrained. It appears this problem only started when he started shooting the Gen 5 with Ameriglos, just like we've observed institutionally. I'd be curious what his SIRT pistol's POA/POI is regulated to. Just like I guessed, "Hmm, I bet he's shooting Ameriglo Agent sights....", I'm going to guess that his SIRT is not regulated to a dot-over-target hold, and he's been unknowingly reinforcing the improper POA.
So, we know from multiple agencies that this is an observed phenomenon by institutional shooters when going from one POA/POI to another. What we see here is a guy displaying shooting characteristics that are consistent with that, and shooting that is not consistent with muzzle push in terms of severity and consistency. Occams Razor, and all. IDK. He probably just sucks and needs to be told not to push the muzzle, because that's obviously worked out so well over the last 6 years.
No one here is saying “he just sucks” that’s you projecting something. And I get it because my agency has just as many institutional instructors that suck and would say that as yours does.
“Same hold as left circle, top edge of front sight cutting through the center of the target.”
I can think of six or seven possible causes in addition to the drive the dot issue you and @TC215 mentioned.
In this case, with the same POA for all three targets, when the shooter shot on their own, they shot low, when they were induced to prep the trigger ahead of time and break the shot immediately in response to a stimulus the low shots went away. That indicates something else.
Going back to the OP:
I think @Serpico1985 ‘s analysis in the OP is correct but narrowing down the cause would require seeing him shoot.I think the middle and right circle are indicative of the actual zero on his gun. I think that when he shot the middle and left target the instructions I gave him possibly prevented him from doing something wrong allowing him to shoot properly.
GJM’s suggestion re: a red dot G17 as a diagnostic tool is a good one.
There is a saying regarding reading sights and shot calling that irons whisper but red dots scream. We had several shooters with long-standing anticipation issues who were able to overcome them when they finally saw for themselves what the gun was actually doing.
Last edited by HCM; 05-27-2023 at 06:13 PM.
A-ha! Yeah, I misread that as in same hold as the left circle where he used dot over target.
"Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer
Video record him from the side using an app like coaches eye. It lets you go frame by frame and will reveal if he is moving his hands while pressing the trigger. I have used this successfully to demonstrate the error(s) to the shooter. YMMV,
"Knowledge is good." Emil Faber, date unknown.
OK, I thought you were assuming that he was defaulting to something different than he was reporting.
I can tell you that I’ve had shooters with muzzle dip from a variety of issues say that their iron sights looked fine, but when we slow motion video them, you could see the dip. I don’t know if it’s because they’re just seeing what they want see or if they are just not looking at the sites the way they say they are.
Totally agree with @HCM that he’s likely flinching low. Even a mm or two will cause that. He’s probably not visually perceiving enough to realize it.
Have him borrow a dot gun Glock and you’ll have your answer very quickly.
One thing I like to think about with trigger press is that I’m not pulling the trigger… I’m pushing the strong base of thumb through my trigger finger. That gets the proper visualization of supporting the backstrap in follow through.
So I would recommend that he really focuses on following through the press with backstrap support.
Reply With Quote