Classifier results analysis, slightly different angle

[YVK]

So 5 more questions/thoughts:

In the matches you have shot, what were the rankings of other shooters near your scores?

If you repeated the classifier a few times what would be your score?

If you practiced the classifier a few times, woud that change your scores?

If you shot the classifier with your G17, what change, if any, would that have on your score?

If you analyze each run within the overall classifier, can you see specific areas where you have opportunity for improvement?

Most of them are my level shooters, nobody is better than SS. Sure, if I practiced it more, I'd do better, or I hope so. I don't think P30 is holding me back anymore, reloads maybe. We'll find out in 2-3 months.

Wheat I'm thinking of is regularly utilizing the timer in live fire and incorporating movement, etc. not that there's a lot of movement in the classifier, but if you can do it quickly while moving you can do it better standing still. ....


Can you break down your points down into the following groups?
-penalties (procedurals like cover, etc.)
-accuracy (-1s and -3s)

Without private range, or private time on public range, the use of timer is limited by circumstances. On my range the timer picks up echo from my own shots, let alone noise from other lanes. I am pretty much limited to using it as a start signal or par function. When I can use it as an actual timer, it is a good day for me.

Stage one - two mikes, seven -1s, stage 2 - eight -1s, stage 3 - two cover procedurals, one mike and 14 more points lost. I wasn't attentive enough to see if how many -3s vs -1s I had on that stage. Next time I'll photo the target.

Here's a good link on m4.com, Todd has a good post in it.
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=8176

I read it and did everything he said. Other than missing those heads..

Transitions. Improving my transitions was a big step in me making Master.

As gamerish as it may sound, on stage 3 you need to position yourself from the outset so you can see all 3 targets and just transition across them. Pieing out so only one is visible at a time is too frigging slow. As long as you have 100% lower body and 50% upper body behind cover, you are good to go.

Transitions is also what I can't set up without private range. I shoot pin matches occasionally as a transition practice but that's not the same. This is not just about classifier, but about the fact it is a skill I want to work on. The distance between targets, the staggered height - all is relatively foreign. Don't know how to practice it on one lane of indoors range.

You can set up a position behind the barricade so you can see all three yet maintain the cover? Both sides of a barricade?



What I am hearing from you is that the qualitative improvement is expected from a small cumulative quantitative steps - get more practice, become more familiar, clean up misses, tighten the times one step at the time. We'll see then. In that regard, this link ..

http://lonestar.texas.net/~mberg/gun...reak_Down1.xls

..was massively helpful, thank you. This allows to put everything in a quantitative, measurable prospective. I made the expert time on stage one but at a horrible accuracy expense. I pretty much made expert accuracy demands on stage three, but at expense of speed and with penalties. I made expert cut on stage two. This info is certainly very helpful in setting up practice plans.

Good help from everybody, thank you.

[wJAKE19]

Most of them are my level shooters, nobody is better than SS. Sure, if I practiced it more, I'd do better, or I hope so. I don't think P30 is holding me back anymore, reloads maybe. We'll find out in 2-3 months.



Without private range, or private time on public range, the use of timer is limited by circumstances. On my range the timer picks up echo from my own shots, let alone noise from other lanes. I am pretty much limited to using it as a start signal or par function. When I can use it as an actual timer, it is a good day for me.

Stage one - two mikes, seven -1s, stage 2 - eight -1s, stage 3 - two cover procedurals, one mike and 14 more points lost. I wasn't attentive enough to see if how many -3s vs -1s I had on that stage. Next time I'll photo the target.




I read it and did everything he said. Other than missing those heads..




Transitions is also what I can't set up without private range. I shoot pin matches occasionally as a transition practice but that's not the same. This is not just about classifier, but about the fact it is a skill I want to work on. The distance between targets, the staggered height - all is relatively foreign. Don't know how to practice it on one lane of indoors range.

You can set up a position behind the barricade so you can see all three yet maintain the cover? Both sides of a barricade?



What I am hearing from you is that the qualitative improvement is expected from a small cumulative quantitative steps - get more practice, become more familiar, clean up misses, tighten the times one step at the time. We'll see then. In that regard, this link ..



..was massively helpful, thank you. This allows to put everything in a quantitative, measurable prospective. I made the expert time on stage one but at a horrible accuracy expense. I pretty much made expert accuracy demands on stage three, but at expense of speed and with penalties. I made expert cut on stage two. This info is certainly very helpful in setting up practice plans.

Good help from everybody, thank you.

you should be just a few points down on stage 1, slow down and get your hits, its pretty close range but you still need to look at your sights. dont miss the head shots. this is the stage with the most draws, be quick to the gun, sure on the grip and fast to the target, then get your hits.

stage 2 is movement... be smart and only move as fast as you can shoot -0's. turn into the gun and get your eyes on target as fast as you can. be down no more than 8-10points

stage 3, shoot as accurate as you can, and run from p1 to the barrel, no use of walking or jogging on the timer. be no more than 15-20 points down.

[rob_s]

This thread is proving very interesting to me. 12k rounds/year of all single lane, un-timed practice, seems to me to be wasted effort. That's 230 rounds per week, which is impressive but doesn't sent to be getting you anywhere useful. Are you at least cleaning Dot Torture? At what distance? I think you're past the point of diminishing returns.

The way to get practice with timers and multiple timers given the constraints that you seem to have is pretty simple really... Shoot more matches. I would in fact suggest more matches at the expense of any more static range time. Not just for match performance but for the building of the skills you can't work on at the static range.

[YVK]

This thread is proving very interesting to me. 12k rounds/year of all single lane, un-timed practice, seems to me to be wasted effort. That's 230 rounds per week, which is impressive but doesn't sent to be getting you anywhere useful. Are you at least cleaning Dot Torture? At what distance? I think you're past the point of diminishing returns.

I cleaned DT in presence of 10 other people a year ago, in Todd's class, at the same time I scored advanced on FAST.
My personal best FAST is 5.82. My personal best clean DT is at 5 yards. My DT at 7 yards is 46. My El Pres during this match was 10.21 clean. There is a number of my scores reported at the DOTW section, if you want to get more reference data.
Your point of my practice volume getting my nowhere is inaccurate, I record and measure my results and I see improvements. Your point of diminished returns could be valid, hard to say. That's the whole thing about all we do, knowing if effort is wasted or not, isn't it?

Yep, you're right, doing better in matches, which classifier is, involves shooting more matches, if anything, simply for reason of getting exposure to stuff I can't do indoors.

[Mickey]

For help with transitions working on an indoor range I think these targets may help.
http://www.letargets.com/estylez_item.aspx?item=DT-2A
when I am at the range by myself I load up 3 mags with seven rounds and do a "casino" drill. which means the target gets its corresponding amount of rounds, target 1 gets one round target 2 gets to rounds and so on.
If you have someone with you at the range they could call out colors or numbers.

[GJM]

I have read a post, I think by TLG, that suggested folks that only take classes, without significant practice do themselves a disservice. I think the opposite is also true. I shot a lot this summer, but know that I learned a lot in the two day AFHS class in ABQ last month, and look forward to a two day tutorial with Bill Rogers the beginning of November. Also plan to train with Manny Bragg in January.

YVK, I know that you purposively elected to minimize courses this year, but I bet a mix of personal training, matches, and instruction will help you achieve your objectives most efficiently.

[joshs]

I shot my first ever classifier today . . . I'd shot two IDPA matches prior to that.

I think you've identified why your performance didn't match your expectations. Pistol competition is new for you, so I wouldn't expect to shoot even close to 100% of your capability. As you shoot more competitions the gap between your ability and match results will begin to shrink.

As for how to shoot the classifier, I think you'll see much better results by focusing on shooting stages 1 and 2 clean. Personally, I'll take more risk of -1s on stage 3 than the other stages. I know there is a lot of temptation to trade accuracy for speed in the SS to EX classifications, but I think you will find your progress to M is much easier if you simply focus on shooting -0s on every shot.

[YVK]

Mickey, thanks. I do something like this periodically by means of some generic large target and 3x5 cards. Gives some practice at it, but not the extent of visual refocus and body movement as on a classifier.

GJM, you're right in that if doing well in competition is one's goal, then getting some instruction from competition trainers might prove helpful.

Josh, thanks for advice. There is much to learn here for me for sure, the balance between speed and hits is certainly one of them. The first match I shot I went for hits and came in fifth, the second match I went for speed and won the match. Going for speed on classifier seemed to prove a wrong move.

[rob_s]

GJM, you're right in that if doing well in competition is one's goal, then getting some instruction from competition trainers might prove helpful.

Maybe this is a good time to ask, what is your goal?

If you don't have the ability to shoot in a practical way when you practice, then competition will help you work on skills that are important to any application beyond bullseye shooting.

[BN]

I got a spreadsheet from somewhere on the internet that breaks down the times needed. I can't find the original but here is my copy.
http://lonestar.texas.net/~mberg/gun...reak_Down1.xls
This is not my work, props to the original creator whoever you are.
Gringop

I just followed this link and it has me listed as shooting the classifier in 62.5 seconds. That has never happened.

That info came from a thread on Enos where people thought it was impossible to shoot a 60 second classifier. I just listed some possible times on each string of the classifier. Sort of a "Dream Team" classifier. The very best I have ever done is 84 seconds.

YVK, if you want to do well in IDPA matches, then you need to shoot as many as you can. It is different than doing drills in practice. As an example, I'm a pretty decent IDPA shooter. When I recently started doing some of Todd's drills, I pretty much sucked. As I continue doing them I am getting better and it is also making me a better IDPA shooter.

If I was you I'd spend part of my training money finding a way to practice more than just drills, even you have to drive farther to a different range. Shoot as many different matches as you can.

Bill