Red Dot v Irons: interesting difference for me.

[Chomps]

I went to the State game area today and set up a little steel shoot with some hanging gongs a 66% AR500 silhouette and some torso targets.

I have since acquired a second Glock 19 GEN five only this one is Red dot ready, I Mounted the 509T from my Walther PDP. So now my Carrie EDC Glock 19 has irons and I’ve got one with a red dot for the range.

The interesting thing I noticed today was, at roughly 3 feet to 7 yards I am quicker and more accurate with iron sights on my follow up shots. Whether it be my poor grip, my arthritis, a “Snappy” gun,.. whatever it is I tend to get a fair amount of muscle flip. And it seems to me that I need to be able to see the front and rear sites in my fov in order to recover and re-align from the recoil quickly enough to get a second, third, or fourth, accurate shot on target.

I’m sure it has something to do with having both the front and rear sights present in my field of vision as the gun is coming down. where as with the red dot, they’re blocked and therefore I’m lost relying simply on finding that red dot hoping it comes into my FOV. Anybody else noticing the same in their range sessions when using multiple sighting platforms?

I noticed I was even quicker & more accurate with my hellcat and irons, (which I shoot terrible,) than I was with the Glock MOS. And at the range, going slow and deliberate, I can group the center of a target at 10-15 yards with the Glock. I definitely Can’t do that with the Hellcat.


With the red dot, I lose the dot when the muzzle rises and I definitely have to slow way down search for it and take more time for the follow up shots.

Also, for whatever reason, I appear to get significantly more anticipatory flinch when shooting with a red dot than I do an iron sight. :shrug: It was common with my PDP but now I see it cropping into my trigger press with the MOS G19. I don’t seem to have that with the Glock and iron sights. Isn’t there with my G 48 and irons either.

Anybody know what that’s about? (…aside from the obvious, “I Suck!”) Lol

[JCN]

The interesting thing I noticed today was, at roughly 3 feet to 7 yards I am quicker and more accurate with iron sights on my follow up shots. Whether it be my poor grip, my arthritis, a “Snappy” gun,.. whatever it is I tend to get a fair amount of muscle flip. And it seems to me that I need to be able to see the front and rear sites in my fov in order to recover and re-align from the recoil quickly enough to get a second, third, or fourth, accurate shot on target.

Anybody know what that’s about? (…aside from the obvious, “I Suck!”) Lol

You are exactly what I’m talking about here:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....ight-alignment

You’re using vision when you should be using proprioception.

Dry practice can correct that.

Do the SWYNTS drill for a few weeks and try again.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....o-see-training

[Rick R]

I’m sure it has something to do with having both the front and rear sights present in my field of vision as the gun is coming down. where as with the red dot, they’re blocked and therefore I’m lost relying simply on finding that red dot hoping it comes into my FOV. Anybody else noticing the same in their range sessions when using multiple sighting platforms?

I think you suffer from the same deficiency that I do because we have way more trigger time with irons as opposed to with RDS. I don’t see my irons in recoil but I know where they’ll be as I set up the next shot. The guys with lotsa RDS time know where their dot is even though they can’t see it and have faith that the glowing LED light will slide into position instead of “hope”. The big benefit of RDS is the fiery ball of hate is much easier to pick up in motion and send to the target than an itty bitty iron post. We just need to learn faith brother!

[Utm]

The goal isn't really to see the dot during recoil but for the dot to return to the same spot

[JCN]

The goal isn't really to see the dot during recoil but for the dot to return to the same spot

The goal for me is to see the dot all the way through recoil and back down so I can call my shot from the initial streak and predict when the dot will fall onto target so I can ambush with trigger instead of waiting.

Big windows obviously help.

Think of it this way.

If you’re a wide receiver, you watch the quarterback launch the ball and you know approximately when and where it’s going to land. As it descends, you fine tune your timing to get there.

As opposed to not seeing the ball until it’s nearing ground level and then having to react to where it is and where you are.

With a small window it’s not going to be possible though unless compensated gun or very mild ballistics.

[Utm]

The goal for me is to see the dot all the way through recoil and back down so I can call my shot from the initial streak and predict when the dot will fall onto target so I can ambush with trigger instead of waiting.

Big windows obviously help.

Think of it this way.

If you’re a wide receiver, you watch the quarterback launch the ball and you know approximately when and where it’s going to land. As it descends, you fine tune your timing to get there.

As opposed to not seeing the ball until it’s nearing ground level and then having to react to where it is and where you are.

With a small window it’s not going to be possible though unless compensated gun or very mild ballistics.

I guess my goal is typically to see where the dot lifted from and where it returned to. I have run RMR's exclusively so I don't know what any other window size would do for me

[GJM]

I guess my goal is typically to see where the dot lifted from and where it returned to. I have run RMR's exclusively so I don't know what any other window size would do for me

A larger window optic would probably make you like a RMR less! I pulled the RMR from a G26 and replaced it with a Holosun 507CO, which I very much prefer.

[Utm]

A larger window optic would probably make you like a RMR less! I pulled the RMR from a G26 and replaced it with a Holosun 507CO, which I very much prefer.

I would definitely explore more optics if our duty guns weren't only restricted to the RMR

[G19Fan]

A larger window optic would probably make you like a RMR less! I pulled the RMR from a G26 and replaced it with a Holosun 507CO, which I very much prefer.

I second how much nicer a larger window is

[Sero Sed Serio]

Also, for whatever reason, I appear to get significantly more anticipatory flinch when shooting with a red dot than I do an iron sight. :shrug: It was common with my PDP but now I see it cropping into my trigger press with the MOS G19. I don’t seem to have that with the Glock and iron sights. Isn’t there with my G 48 and irons either.

I noticed the same thing at the start of my dot journey, which was with DA/SA or DAO guns (P2000SK DA/SA, P229 DA/SA, P229 DAK) vs. striker pistols. This really confused me because I was a much better DA shooter than I ever was with striker guns, and I couldn’t figure out how I developed a flinch with a trigger system I ran so well for almost 20 years.

Lately I’ve been devoting my time to a G19 w/grip anchor and Holosun 509. At first the dot magnified my flinch, but I’ve managed to flip it around in my mind (no better way to describe it, sorry), and now the dot reflects my trigger finger instead of my trigger finger pulling the dot. Whoever said “Irons whisper, dots scream) really had it right—I can read and stop myself on flinch pulls now. I think that taking the time to read the dot and what it says about your trigger input is key, and the dot can be a tool to help you break through to the next stage and see the things that you didn’t see with irons.

Devote some time to the dot. Target focus through the dot (I was starting to see the benefits of target-focus through the irons when I really started using putting in the time with dots, and am a firm believer in seeing through the sights at a specific point on the target vs. hard front sight focus on a general area on the target, at least at close to medium ranges) and pay attention to the feedback it offers. I suspect with some time you’ll see improvements. I did. Then take that skill and apply it to irons, and you’ll probably improve on both.