Shithole Cities

[TGS]

I’m guessing they’ll be armed with handguns like the guys who had a similar gig when I was still in. While NYPD’s misuse of Terry stops and frisks was slapped down a few years back, they’re still searching bags in subway stations. Eventually that will get squashed but I don’t expect it to be any time soon.

I was an MP in the NY ARNG. There were guys on State Active Duty Orders for most of the time I was in, though I was from upstate and never dis the job. They carried G17s, which I found odd.

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure they're more or less there for looks, and extra bodies for sworn police. While not SAD, I did do some stuff with police. They developed PC, they made arrests. I was there purely in an officer safety type role during arrests.

Just tagging onto you guys:

This new program sounds very similar to Empire Shield, which has been going on for two decades but was limited to major terminals for the purposes of anti-terrorism.

I would not make a comparison to martial law in any way. Civil authorities are still calling the shots, and a states' National Guard activating on state orders to assist civil authorities is nothing new or without precedent. It's quite literally one of their core missions.

[DrkBlue]

Just tagging onto you guys:

This new program sounds very similar to Empire Shield, which has been going on for two decades but was limited to major terminals for the purposes of anti-terrorism.

I would not make a comparison to martial law in any way. Civil authorities are still calling the shots, and a states' National Guard activating on state orders to assist civil authorities is nothing new or without precedent. It's quite literally one of their core missions.

There have been few times that I felt less safe than La Guardia, circa 2018. One trip I counted six different armed agencies patrolling the terminal and immediate parking. One dropped metal cup and a whole bunch of agencies, inclusive of strawhat Troopers and Guardsmen armed with long guns, we’re going to start pointing guns in different directions.

I couldn’t wait to leave La Guardia, but f*@/‘g Delta couldn’t book me home for seven days.

Only New Yorkers would find that dysfunctional security theatre situation comforting. It is a performative clown show that curiously only seems to be necessary in one strange, atypical place that is resistant to the Constitutional and social norms of the rest of the nation.

[DDTSGM]

I’m guessing they’ll be armed with handguns like the guys who had a similar gig when I was still in. While NYPD’s misuse of Terry stops and frisks was slapped down a few years back, they’re still searching bags in subway stations. Eventually that will get squashed but I don’t expect it to be any time soon.

Essentially isn't this just a ginormous TSA'esque experience? Or search prior to entering a football stadium?

The difference between that activity and a Terry Stop is that the citizen submits to the brief intrusion in return for being allowed into the venue or mode of transportation.

Don't want to be searched? Don't ride the subway.

[JohnO]

I used to take the subway to elementary school in the 3rd grade in Brooklyn. How times have changed. Everyday to work at the NYSE when in high school for a job in the summers. Mom used to take me shopping in the fancy stores like Bloomy's when I was a kid.

My parents sent me 3 blocks to the corner store in New Haven to buy their cigarettes at an age I would have never let my kids out of eyesight in the suburbs. Kools for dad and Viceroys for Mom. Highschool I shot on the rifle team in the school basement. The guys who owned their own target rifles rode with them on the school bus, walked in the building and kept them in their hall lockers. The most popular fashion accessory the guys wore was a folding Buck Knife on a belt sheath. I still have mine. Now you probably get arrested for a fingernail clipper. Walk into school with a rifle and it's normal! We had no shootings, stabbings or slashings.

What the Hell Happened??????????

[Glenn E. Meyer]

We used to sit outside our houses and play games with our pocket knives. Mumbley - peg. My dad give me a knife his dad gave him. I guess not today in NYC. My wife tells me that she used to have a pocket knife going to elementary school in Niagara county. I recall my MIL saying - All men should carry a knife. Came from Eastern Europe. She said that as I was showing my FIL a new one I bought. Guess, the NG would bust me on the subway nowadays, if I took it.

[WobblyPossum]

Essentially isn't this just a ginormous TSA'esque experience? Or search prior to entering a football stadium?

The difference between that activity and a Terry Stop is that the citizen submits to the brief intrusion in return for being allowed into the venue or mode of transportation.

Don't want to be searched? Don't ride the subway.

Kinda, but not exactly. Going to a football game involves entering a private venue where you have to abide by their rules and going to the airport involves having to abide by federal criminal statutes governing what can be carried into the sterile area of the airport and dozens of other federal criminal statutes. Everyone gets the same experience. The searches of passengers’ bags on the subway are “random” and not everyone is searched. I grew up in Brooklyn from when I was a toddler until I was in my early 20s. I was never searched at a subway station and that was my normal means of transportation for four years of high school. Whenever I visit my family there I continue to primarily get around the city by subway if it’s practical to do so. I’ve still never had my bag searched.

[TGS]

Essentially isn't this just a ginormous TSA'esque experience? Or search prior to entering a football stadium?

The difference between that activity and a Terry Stop is that the citizen submits to the brief intrusion in return for being allowed into the venue or mode of transportation.

Don't want to be searched? Don't ride the subway.

1) The 4th Amendment does not apply to a private venue. Bag searches at a football stadium are not a 4th Amendment intrusion. The same is not true for a public venue, where the 4th Amendment applies. Comparing the two is apples to oranges; this is super basic civics.

2) There's legal ground for establishing a security inspection zone for critical infrastructure, but randomized bag searches only at some stations is likely not going to pass the tests used by SCOTUS in the past which considered the legitimacy of the inspection zone's "integrity", if that makes sense.

3) Another one of the SCOTUS tests involved the option for other modes of transportation. The subway is not an option for many New Yorkers, but reasonably necessary. So, you're going to fail this test as well.

4) I'm generally very biased in favor of LE, being a LEO and also the son of a LEO. With that said, the NYPD has a long history of completely ignoring the most basic tenets of the 4th Amendment...as in, pretending it doesn't exist at all. While with any other agency I'd probably say, "Hold on a minute, they've probably thought this through...let's see what they're on about", in this case I have zero faith that the NYPD has applied any constitutional rigor in their decision making, here. There isn't a single LE organization in the US that has repeatedly shown such overwhelmingly sheer incompetence in applying the 4th Amendment.

All that to say, this will likely be struck down...or they'll rescind the practice before it makes it that far.

[Kanye Wyoming]

Video. One of the comments: “From “Defund the police” to “Papers please” commands from men with machine guns. Life comes at you fast in blue states.”

https://twitter.com/@twitter/status/1765513784230031367?s=20

[DDTSGM]

Kinda, but not exactly. Going to a football game involves entering a private venue where you have to abide by their rules and going to the airport involves having to abide by federal criminal statutes governing what can be carried into the sterile area of the airport and dozens of other federal criminal statutes. Everyone gets the same experience. The searches of passengers’ bags on the subway are “random” and not everyone is searched. I grew up in Brooklyn from when I was a toddler until I was in my early 20s. I was never searched at a subway station and that was my normal means of transportation for four years of high school. Whenever I visit my family there I continue to primarily get around the city by subway if it’s practical to do so. I’ve still never had my bag searched.

1) The 4th Amendment does not apply to a private venue. Bag searches at a football stadium are not a 4th Amendment intrusion. The same is not true for a public venue, where the 4th Amendment applies. Comparing the two is apples to oranges; this is super basic civics.

2) There's legal ground for establishing a security inspection zone for critical infrastructure, but randomized bag searches only at some stations is likely not going to pass the tests used by SCOTUS in the past which considered the legitimacy of the inspection zone's "integrity", if that makes sense.

3) Another one of the SCOTUS tests involved the option for other modes of transportation. The subway is not an option for many New Yorkers, but reasonably necessary. So, you're going to fail this test as well.

4) I'm generally very biased in favor of LE, being a LEO and also the son of a LEO. With that said, the NYPD has a long history of completely ignoring the most basic tenets of the 4th Amendment...as in, pretending it doesn't exist at all. While with any other agency I'd probably say, "Hold on a minute, they've probably thought this through...let's see what they're on about", in this case I have zero faith that the NYPD has applied any constitutional rigor in their decision making, here. There isn't a single LE organization in the US that has repeatedly shown such overwhelmingly sheer incompetence in applying the 4th Amendment.

All that to say, this will likely be struck down...or they'll rescind the practice before it makes it that far.

Wobbly: My bad, I did not realize the searches were randomized.

TGS: Regarding point four - the NYPD and the 4th - my perception is that the average NYPD officer doesn't have as good an understanding of the 4th as we thought was necessary for a police officer.. This is based on having a couple of former NYPD officers come through our reciprocity class and trying to have an online discussion regarding the NYPD program with the late Pat Rogers.

[RoyGBiv]

Re: the above video. What a joke.
You can check my bag all day but you're not going to find the gun in my waistband or the knife in my pocket that way.