Very cool.Originally Posted by 358156hp
I've often thought that one of the things the hamstrung the .357 SIG / preventing it from being a true 'autoloading .357 mag' was it not using .357 Magnum projectiles, and so it lacked the explosive hybrid fragmentation + expansion of the classic 125gr SJHP.
I'd love to see if its possible to swage down the Remington 125gr SJHP to .355 and run them reliably from a .357 SIG.
When you say explosive fragmentation for .357 Magnum, are you referring to the 125 gr JHP projectiles tested by Dr. Fackler or a different load? Dr. Fackler has a wound profile of the .357 125 gr JHP load in his article on the Wound Profile in the Journal of Trauma and he states that although there may be some fragmentation with that load, the fragments tend to stay in or near the permanent cavity and don't contribute significantly to tissue disruption.Very cool.
I've often thought that one of the things the hamstrung the .357 SIG / preventing it from being a true 'autoloading .357 mag' was it not using .357 Magnum projectiles, and so it lacked the explosive hybrid fragmentation + expansion of the classic 125gr SJHP.
I'd love to see if its possible to swage down the Remington 125gr SJHP to .355 and run them reliably from a .357 SIG.
IIRC, Duncan McPherson explained in the Wound Ballistics Review that the small temporary cavities produced by most common pistol bullets do not cause significant disruption of elastic tissue even when there is bullet fragmentation (I can't seem to remember the title of that article ATM).
It's my understanding that the synergistic effects of fragmentation and temporary cavitation in elastic tissue requires both a large temporary cavity (most commonly produced by rifle rounds) and fragments that move laterally away from the main wound track.
Last edited by wolf76; 04-30-2023 at 12:16 AM.
Not sure if was specifically designed to under penetrate, or if it was designed for maximum expansion which led to less than optimal penetration.
The 125gr SJHP was the famous .357 mag 'street proven' 'lighting bolt effect' load that earned the .357 such a fearsome reputation, the reputation that lead to the development of the .357 SIG to try and replicate in an autloader.
You can see the gel test here, sadly the only one I could find using ballistics gel. Definitely nasty.
Rifle velocity / rifle wounding via stretch cavity is typically cited at occurring ~2200fps.
Whats interesting is when you look at energy; what if rifle velocity is really describing a minimum energy that must be rapidly released to cause an adequately large TSC that it induces tearing, possibly helped along by fragmentation?
55gr @ 2200fps = 591 ft/lbs
125gr @ 1450fps = 584 ft/lbs
I've read multiple accounts from both people who have used the .357 mag 125gr in shootings, as well as doctors / morgue guys who saw the results, as well as handgun hunters. All described an outsized, different then normal pistol round effect more akin to a light rifle round (for example an ER nurse who saw a cop have to have their leg amputated after ND'ing a .357 into their thigh.) All the accounts boiled down to "handguns are handguns...and then there's the .357 mag."
I wonder whether thats the combination of achieving minimum rifle energy + having a rifle like fragmenting/expanding rapid TSC achieving projectile?
Whereas .357 SIG typically used a bonded, controlled expansion projectile at a more modest 1350fps, and so never achieved the same effect?
I can't prove any of this but thats been my hypothesis for awhile, and why I'd love to see the old 125gr SJHP married to a full power .357 sig, which can drive a 125gr 1500-1550fps from a G35.
Maybe you did without knowing you did. Its performance was not all they woulda hoped for in the big FBI Miami shootout.
ETA: What caused the FBI to migrate to the 10mm, and subsequently tone down the 10mm, and that lead to the development of the 40S&W.
Speers God Dot for 357 SIG is based on their 357 mag Gold Dot design with the hollow cavity plated as well, this design appears to rely on plating thickness and skiving to control expansion. Since I'll be swaging 357 mag bullets down I want to stick to plated bullets since there is some spring back involved when sizing bullets, and copper or brass jackets spring back at a different rate than the lead cores which can cause a slightly loose core unless some sort of bonding is present.
I know of one guy who is firmly committed to Underwood 68 gr Xtreme Defender in 357 SIG for defense, but I haven't seen any actual FBI protocol tests. I see some value in Clear Ballistics gel for head to head comparisons, but prefer FBI protocol as a standardized test. Milk jugs and watermelons are fun to watch but are unquantifiable.
Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem
I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude
-Thomas Jefferson
I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.
Well I've definitely heard of that.
At least once or twice
I just couldn't tell from the post that I was responding to if when the Silver Tip was developed it was aimed at only penetrating a small amount for whatever reason, or as he alluded to in a follow-up post, it was designed almost exclusively for expansion and penetration took a rear seat.
I'm not sure who your source is for .357 mag "being a street proven lightning bolt effect load" but if your source is Marshall & Sanow, then please consulted Dr. Fackler's and the Wound Ballistics Review's critiques of M&S's methodology and why their stuff is not credible.The 125gr SJHP was the famous .357 mag 'street proven' 'lighting bolt effect' load that earned the .357 such a fearsome reputation, the reputation that lead to the development of the .357 SIG to try and replicate in an autloader.
You can see the gel test here, sadly the only one I could find using ballistics gel. Definitely nasty.
Rifle velocity / rifle wounding via stretch cavity is typically cited at occurring ~2200fps.
Whats interesting is when you look at energy; what if rifle velocity is really describing a minimum energy that must be rapidly released to cause an adequately large TSC that it induces tearing, possibly helped along by fragmentation?
55gr @ 2200fps = 591 ft/lbs
125gr @ 1450fps = 584 ft/lbs
I've read multiple accounts from both people who have used the .357 mag 125gr in shootings, as well as doctors / morgue guys who saw the results, as well as handgun hunters. All described an outsized, different then normal pistol round effect more akin to a light rifle round (for example an ER nurse who saw a cop have to have their leg amputated after ND'ing a .357 into their thigh.) All the accounts boiled down to "handguns are handguns...and then there's the .357 mag."
I wonder whether thats the combination of achieving minimum rifle energy + having a rifle like fragmenting/expanding rapid TSC achieving projectile?
Whereas .357 SIG typically used a bonded, controlled expansion projectile at a more modest 1350fps, and so never achieved the same effect?
I can't prove any of this but thats been my hypothesis for awhile, and why I'd love to see the old 125gr SJHP married to a full power .357 sig, which can drive a 125gr 1500-1550fps from a G35.
I'm not a ballistician or trauma surgeon but my understanding is that you can't just assume that a round would produce significant temporary cavity stretch due to velocity alone (ie. fairly 'low velocity' 12 gauge shot gun slugs, .44 Mag and .30 carbine JSP can produce significant temporary cavity strech while the temporary cavities produced by 'high velocity' PDW rounds like FN's 5.7mm and HK's 4.6mm are too small to be a significant wounding factor). In this thread, the Schwartz explained that "Bullet shape, drag coefficient and cross-sectional presentation/expansion area also play significant roles in determining at what speed such effects start to occur." https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....und-ballistics.
From what I comprehended from Duncan McPherson's writings, temporary cavitation is not "energy dump/transfer" per say. In his book Bullet Penetration, McPherson explained that: "The cross-sectional area of the temporary cavity at any point depends primarily on the bullet drag force at that point...The total volume of the temporary cavity is approximately proportional to the kinetic energy of the striking bullet...Stopping the bullet requires that the integral of drag force over the penetration distance to be proportional to the initial bullet kinetic energy...The drag force depends on the bullet cross-sectional area and drag coefficient; thus bullet expansion changes temporary cavity shape (to be wider and shorter) but does not have a first order effect on total cavity volume." McPherson further explains the temporary cavity dynamics in the Wound Ballistics Review Volume 4, Issue 2 from the Fall of 1999. As well, I'm sure that other members of this board who are far more knowledgeable than me on wound ballistics, such as DocGKR, the Schwartz and Shawn Dodson, can better explain the TC dynamics than I can.
I have a question about your statement that "Rifle velocity / rifle wounding via stretch cavity is typically cited at occurring ~2200fps." I believe I've heard that statement from Federal ammo reps in the Lucky Gunner youtube videos about .223 LE loads. On page 27 of the Wound Ballistics Review Vol. 3, No. 4 from 1998, Dr. Fackler said that the Federal 55 gr .223 TBBC load doesn't produce an adequate temporary cavity when fired from carbine length barrels because Dr. Robert's testing listed the average Max TC as 8.5 cm (average veolocity 2854 fps from a 16" barrel Colt Sporter AR15A2), which is larger than most pistol rounds but not as big as that produced by some other 5.56mm/.223 loads tested by Dr. Roberts in the 1998 Wound Ballistics Review. My understanding is that the .223 55 gr TBBC load was intended as a barrier blind .223 load for M16A1s given to LE (please correct me if I'm wrong). I'm just wondering whether the statement that .223 bullets at around 2200 fps can create "rifle wounding via strech cavity" is implying that the TSC produced by .223 JSP loads at those velocities can reliably damage more fragile and inelastic tissues rather than those tissues with greater elastic and compressive yield strengths?
Last edited by wolf76; 04-30-2023 at 11:54 AM.
Both DB and, I think, Chuck Haggard have mentioned a working theory that at least a portion of the 125 grain .357's fearsome reputation was due to the flash bang effect of being enveloped in that big fireball, as low-flash powders were not a thing at the time.The 125gr SJHP was the famous .357 mag 'street proven' 'lighting bolt effect' load that earned the .357 such a fearsome reputation, the reputation that lead to the development of the .357 SIG to try and replicate in an autloader.
You can see the gel test here, sadly the only one I could find using ballistics gel. Definitely nasty.
Rifle velocity / rifle wounding via stretch cavity is typically cited at occurring ~2200fps.
Whats interesting is when you look at energy; what if rifle velocity is really describing a minimum energy that must be rapidly released to cause an adequately large TSC that it induces tearing, possibly helped along by fragmentation?
55gr @ 2200fps = 591 ft/lbs
125gr @ 1450fps = 584 ft/lbs
I've read multiple accounts from both people who have used the .357 mag 125gr in shootings, as well as doctors / morgue guys who saw the results, as well as handgun hunters. All described an outsized, different then normal pistol round effect more akin to a light rifle round (for example an ER nurse who saw a cop have to have their leg amputated after ND'ing a .357 into their thigh.) All the accounts boiled down to "handguns are handguns...and then there's the .357 mag."
I wonder whether thats the combination of achieving minimum rifle energy + having a rifle like fragmenting/expanding rapid TSC achieving projectile?
Whereas .357 SIG typically used a bonded, controlled expansion projectile at a more modest 1350fps, and so never achieved the same effect?
I can't prove any of this but thats been my hypothesis for awhile, and why I'd love to see the old 125gr SJHP married to a full power .357 sig, which can drive a 125gr 1500-1550fps from a G35.
https://www.amazon.com/Stressfire-Vo...s%2C340&sr=8-2
I understand that this theory was never fully fleshed out, because of the mass migration to autoloaders during that time period.
Perhaps some from column A, and some from column B.
"It's surprising how often you start wondering just how featureless a desert some people's inner landscapes must be."
-Maple Syrup Actual
The 'lightning bolt effect' line is from the history of the .357 SIG, reportedly how the Texas DPS had described their previous .357 Mags:
https://gunsmagazine.com/guns/handgu...n-perspective/
"About 20 years ago, SIG executive Ted Rowe noticed police departments switching from .357 Magnum revolvers to SIG’s 9mm and .45 ACP pistols. The one thing said about trading in their old sixguns was they missed the devastating stopping power of the 125-grain Magnum round. Texas Department of Public Safety personnel said they’d found the SIG P220 .45 ACP to be a decent manstopper, but it lacked the “lightning bolt effect” some of their personnel had reported when they shot armed felons with the 125-grain .357 Magnum.
Rowe brought SIG together with Federal Cartridge, and the result was the .357 SIG round of 1993. Its bottlenecked case allowed enough power to drive a 125-grain .355″ 9mm bullet 1,350 to 1,450 fps out of a service pistol."
...
I'm regretting not keeping better notes over the years. There were a number of great .357 mag 125gr real life anecdotes (including at least one from this forum, perhaps in a gp100 thread from a few years ago, where a member had a DRT frag nasty stop with the 125gr?)
Here is one that I managed to track down:
https://www.ar15.com/forums/Handguns...age=1#i2270510
"I've worked over 2000 GSW of all types in my medical career. intentional, accidental...suicide.. all of them are a sad story.
pistols
rifles
shotguns
*the biggest thing that hits you in the face immediately is that in many cases the victims are very much "alive" with numerous holes in them. not like the movie and the shear amount of ND's and AD's.
rifle wounds are lethal... even on arms and legs.
shotguns at close range are horrific.
shotguns get ragged on pretty hard on ArfCom, but in the real world getting shot with one at at under 15 yards is on my "do not want" list. MEAT and BONE. all true.
handgun wise- every GSW CE I ever saw said exactly what I have seen. you have roughly a 30% chance of dying of a handgun wound, no matter what round you are shot with and how many rounds you absorb. FIGHT- and keep in the FIGHT.
when I first started my career, 357's were still used by many LEO's and it put people down and out. I gave one dude 177 units of blood products on a single 357 125 gr JHP that entered his groin and almost exited his shoulder blade. ( we called him after 5-6 hours surgery, he was pretty much DOA but everyone gets the best treatment available). I've seen fatalities from arm and leg wounds with a 357. I have no idea why that loading is such a beast on the human body. lights out on a center of mass hit in my experiences.
people who take COM hits with a 357 magnum and live are saved by God. I know it happens and its a rarity, but those people are touched by Holiest of Holy.
I've worked on a few people shot with 357 Sig and its a very close race with the Magnum."
I'm still trying to find some of the other stories, there were another few from ER docs and coroners, but I fear they may have been lost to Archives now.
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