Hornady Critical Duty and Critical Defense. What's the Difference?

[Navin Johnson]

The 'lightning bolt effect' line is from the history of the .357 SIG, reportedly how the Texas DPS had described their previous .357 Mags:

https://gunsmagazine.com/guns/handgu...n-perspective/

"About 20 years ago, SIG executive Ted Rowe noticed police departments switching from .357 Magnum revolvers to SIG’s 9mm and .45 ACP pistols. The one thing said about trading in their old sixguns was they missed the devastating stopping power of the 125-grain Magnum round. Texas Department of Public Safety personnel said they’d found the SIG P220 .45 ACP to be a decent manstopper, but it lacked the “lightning bolt effect” some of their personnel had reported when they shot armed felons with the 125-grain .357 Magnum.

Rowe brought SIG together with Federal Cartridge, and the result was the .357 SIG round of 1993. Its bottlenecked case allowed enough power to drive a 125-grain .355″ 9mm bullet 1,350 to 1,450 fps out of a service pistol."



...

I'm regretting not keeping better notes over the years. There were a number of great .357 mag 125gr real life anecdotes (including at least one from this forum, perhaps in a gp100 thread from a few years ago, where a member had a DRT frag nasty stop with the 125gr?)

Here is one that I managed to track down:

https://www.ar15.com/forums/Handguns...age=1#i2270510

"I've worked over 2000 GSW of all types in my medical career. intentional, accidental...suicide.. all of them are a sad story.

pistols
rifles
shotguns

*the biggest thing that hits you in the face immediately is that in many cases the victims are very much "alive" with numerous holes in them. not like the movie and the shear amount of ND's and AD's.

rifle wounds are lethal... even on arms and legs.
shotguns at close range are horrific.

shotguns get ragged on pretty hard on ArfCom, but in the real world getting shot with one at at under 15 yards is on my "do not want" list. MEAT and BONE. all true.

handgun wise- every GSW CE I ever saw said exactly what I have seen. you have roughly a 30% chance of dying of a handgun wound, no matter what round you are shot with and how many rounds you absorb. FIGHT- and keep in the FIGHT.

when I first started my career, 357's were still used by many LEO's and it put people down and out. I gave one dude 177 units of blood products on a single 357 125 gr JHP that entered his groin and almost exited his shoulder blade. ( we called him after 5-6 hours surgery, he was pretty much DOA but everyone gets the best treatment available). I've seen fatalities from arm and leg wounds with a 357. I have no idea why that loading is such a beast on the human body. lights out on a center of mass hit in my experiences.

people who take COM hits with a 357 magnum and live are saved by God. I know it happens and its a rarity, but those people are touched by Holiest of Holy.

I've worked on a few people shot with 357 Sig and its a very close race with the Magnum."


I'm still trying to find some of the other stories, there were another few from ER docs and coroners, but I fear they may have been lost to Archives now.

Which of the above quotes are from people who are contracted to do, small arms, ammunition development, and testing?

[wolf76]

The 'lightning bolt effect' line is from the history of the .357 SIG, reportedly how the Texas DPS had described their previous .357 Mags:

https://gunsmagazine.com/guns/handgu...n-perspective/

"About 20 years ago, SIG executive Ted Rowe noticed police departments switching from .357 Magnum revolvers to SIG’s 9mm and .45 ACP pistols. The one thing said about trading in their old sixguns was they missed the devastating stopping power of the 125-grain Magnum round. Texas Department of Public Safety personnel said they’d found the SIG P220 .45 ACP to be a decent manstopper, but it lacked the “lightning bolt effect” some of their personnel had reported when they shot armed felons with the 125-grain .357 Magnum.

Rowe brought SIG together with Federal Cartridge, and the result was the .357 SIG round of 1993. Its bottlenecked case allowed enough power to drive a 125-grain .355″ 9mm bullet 1,350 to 1,450 fps out of a service pistol."

...

I'm regretting not keeping better notes over the years. There were a number of great .357 mag 125gr real life anecdotes (including at least one from this forum, perhaps in a gp100 thread from a few years ago, where a member had a DRT frag nasty stop with the 125gr?)

Here is one that I managed to track down:

https://www.ar15.com/forums/Handguns...age=1#i2270510

"I've worked over 2000 GSW of all types in my medical career. intentional, accidental...suicide.. all of them are a sad story.

pistols
rifles
shotguns

*the biggest thing that hits you in the face immediately is that in many cases the victims are very much "alive" with numerous holes in them. not like the movie and the shear amount of ND's and AD's.

rifle wounds are lethal... even on arms and legs.
shotguns at close range are horrific.

shotguns get ragged on pretty hard on ArfCom, but in the real world getting shot with one at at under 15 yards is on my "do not want" list. MEAT and BONE. all true.

handgun wise- every GSW CE I ever saw said exactly what I have seen. you have roughly a 30% chance of dying of a handgun wound, no matter what round you are shot with and how many rounds you absorb. FIGHT- and keep in the FIGHT.

when I first started my career, 357's were still used by many LEO's and it put people down and out. I gave one dude 177 units of blood products on a single 357 125 gr JHP that entered his groin and almost exited his shoulder blade. ( we called him after 5-6 hours surgery, he was pretty much DOA but everyone gets the best treatment available). I've seen fatalities from arm and leg wounds with a 357. I have no idea why that loading is such a beast on the human body. lights out on a center of mass hit in my experiences.

people who take COM hits with a 357 magnum and live are saved by God. I know it happens and its a rarity, but those people are touched by Holiest of Holy.

I've worked on a few people shot with 357 Sig and its a very close race with the Magnum."


I'm still trying to find some of the other stories, there were another few from ER docs and coroners, but I fear they may have been lost to Archives now.

Unfortunatley, a lot of the accounts on .357 magnum that you provided are anecdotal and didn't use a scientific approach like Gene Wolberg did when co-relating properly done static gel tests with surgical and/or post-mortem data from actual OIS incidents for their PD's 9mm 147 gr JHP load.

A post from DocGKR on Tactical Forums a long time ago is really helpful with regards to having an improved understanding of the physical factors associated with shooting incidents:

"What was the path of the bullet through tissue?
Which anatomic structures were damaged and how severe were the injuries?
What was the total penetration depth of the bullet?
What did the bullet do in tissue; did it yaw, deform, fragment, etc…?
If the bullet fragmented, where were the fragments located—depth, pattern, extent, etc…?
What were the physical parameters of the recovered projectile?
Did the bullet go through any intermediate barriers before striking the target?
How large was the victim?
What was the shooting distance?
What were the physical characteristics of the weapon?"

As a side note, I've found an article by Dr. Roberts on .357 SIG in Wound Ballistics Review Volume 4 Number 4, Fall 2000 and I've pasted Dr. Robert's test data from that article onto this post. As seen by Dr. Robert's testing in the Wound Ballistics Review, all of the 125 gr .357 SIG JHPs tested produced insignificant temporary cavity stretch. The .357 SIG 125 gr Winchester JHP lost a little weight so it likely did fragment a bit (although I do not know about the distribted pattern of the small amount of fragments). However, the 125 gr Winchester JHP did not produce increased tissue disruption (associated with the synergistic effects of bullet fragmentation and large temporary cavity stretch) that is seen with fragmenting rifle bullets.

[45dotACP]

My theory was always that a .357 mag of yesteryear was one of the only .35 caliber bullets that actually had decent penetration and expansion compared to it's contemporary service calibers in JHP.

And also the flashbang thing

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[DocGKR]

Bingo, we have a winner! The flash bang effect may play a role with psychological incapacitation, which can represent up to 50% of incapacitations observed in gunfights.

[camel]

It’s kinda hard. To ignore a loud noise. Much like artillery.

[mmc45414]

Well I've definitely heard of that.

At least once or twice

Well, there is no indicator on P-F on how old our posters are!!! Hahaha

I just couldn't tell from the post that I was responding to if when the Silver Tip was developed it was aimed at only penetrating a small amount for whatever reason, or as he alluded to in a follow-up post, it was designed almost exclusively for expansion and penetration took a rear seat.

IMO probably before Miami there was no measurement of what was considered to be "enough".

[andre3k]

I'm late to the conversation. I don't have much to contribute other than this pic that was taken by a coworker was hit by a critical duty or critical defense round. I believe it entered through his thigh and stopped in one of his ass cheeks. A lot people here carry Critical Duty and was concerned about the lack of expansion. On the flip side it's worked well in a lot of shootings as well. Bullets do funny things in the real world.

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[Archer1440]

Well, there is no indicator on P-F on how old our posters are!!! Hahaha


IMO probably before Miami there was no measurement of what was considered to be "enough".

Actually there was. There was a federal study published in 1979 which was, at the time, a state of the art analysis.

https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/Digiti...87004NCJRS.pdf

Link is for the full document. Abstract is below.



Not to step outside my lane, but it seems to me that what we thought we knew over 40 years ago is both different and in some ways the same as what we think we know now. It’s an interesting read given the current general consensus on the subject.

[Shawn Dodson]

Maybe you did without knowing you did. Its performance was not all they woulda hoped for in the big FBI Miami shootout.
ETA: What caused the FBI to migrate to the 10mm, and subsequently tone down the 10mm, and that lead to the development of the 40S&W.

FBI never issued full power 10mm ammunition. It developed and adopted its reduced velocity 10mm load before it contracted for the 10mm pistol to shoot it.

[Shawn Dodson]

Bingo, we have a winner! The flash bang effect may play a role with psychological incapacitation, which can represent up to 50% of incapacitations observed in gunfights.

I carried an S&W model 28 Highway Patrolman .357 magnum revolver on patrol in the mid-1980s, loaded with 125gr SJHP.

It sounded like a cannon when it went off, with an authorative "BOOM!!!", a huge flash ball, and concussive effect.