Appropriate level of skill to carry concealed, responsibly?

[CalAlumnus]

I come at all of this from a pure civilian perspective, and what was most surprising to me is that there isn’t a clear metric out there for when a person is “good enough” at shooting to carry concealed. Of course, there’s a lot more that people should be prepared for (legal considerations, willingness to disengage from a disagreement, etc), but here, I’m just talking about marksmanship.

To be clear, this is about personal standards, or perhaps what you’d suggest for a friend new to concealed carry—not about legal requirements. It’s my sense that the vast majority of people who carry concealed not only have no standard, but they don’t have a clear idea of their level of skill.

Here are some preliminary thoughts:

• No one is ever really “good enough.” No one leaves a defensive gun use thinking they spent too much time training, and you should always be aiming to improve your abilities. Still, it’s helpful to have some base level of standard to measure yourself against so you know when you can reasonably start carrying.
• It’s tempting to think that any carry is good. But if you can’t hit a B-27 at 3 yards 100% of the time, you’re not good enough. There must be some level of skill beneath which a responsible citizen would choose not to carry, even when legally permitted.
• If a CCW issuer has a marksmanship qualification, it’s invariably too easy. See the new SFPD CCW qualification, for instance.

Here are two that come to mind, as well as my rationale (based on my understanding):

1. The 2019 FBI Handgun Qualification. Focuses on closer distances, but touches on distance. Target is quite large, but there will probably be a bit of time pressure on particular strings. Used by the FBI, so it has a degree of national legitimacy. FBI hires a lot of lawyer types and trains them from scratch—this isn’t an HRT qualification.
2. The Five-Yard Roundup. Low round count. Focuses on the most common types of defensive gun uses, per Tom Givens (5 yards; 3 seconds). Probably somewhat more challenging to reach 80% on than the FBI qual, due to the time constraints. No exposure to long distance shots.

To the experts here: if you were a new shooter, but you knew what you know now, what standard would you set for yourself? Or put another way, if a friend was a new shooter and asked you this question, what qualification would you suggest for them?

[alamo5000]

I come at all of this from a pure civilian perspective, and what was most surprising to me is that there isn’t a clear metric out there for when a person is “good enough” at shooting to carry concealed.

What split times would be good enough? Who gets to set those rules or guidelines?

Rather, I say it's not about how 'good' of a shooter, but rather how safely can someone handle a firearm. Stuff like throwing a gun in say a purse with keys and no holster has nothing to do with 'how good of a shooter' one is but it can definitely cause an issue.

[RJ]

For a new shooter, I would start with Mindset, go to Toolset, then work on Skillset.( * )

Mindset

- Possesses the right mindset as to why they want to carry
- Understands the legal consequences of using lethal force appropriately
- Has a plan and means to store the firearm when not in use

Toolset

- Selects a concealed carry system (gun, holster, ammo) that is sized correctly, safe, effective AND suitable for their lifestyle and personal risk assessment THAT CAN BE CARRIED 24/7/365.
- Has read and understood the Operator's Manual and can demonstrate all the basic skills (loading, unloading, etc.)

Skillset

- Can develop basic competence with their firearm at the range.
- Can develop basic competence in Dry Practice, drawing and reholstering. (I would give them something like Tom Givens basic daily dry practice routine.)
- Finally, to arrive at this particular thread's question, if it was up to me, as an initial new-shooter, I've-never-touched-a-gun-before-today learning objective, I'd use:

Under ideal conditions, with no time limits, place 8 of 10 rounds inside an 8" circle at 7 yards.

About all I can come up with. This is not my area of expertise, for sure, but it's interesting topic, as probably like most of ya'll, I've been asked "hey, I need to buy a gun, can you take me to the range?".



* Thanks Paul Sharp. This still rings in my head after 7 years, hearing this at Tac Con 2017 in Memphis.

[Suvorov]

I have always figured that a level of competence equal to that of the average cop or soldiers (not FBI or more elite military) is what anyone who ccw’s *should* be. To the uniformed that might seem high but in reality is a pretty low bar. That said it is a bar that many with more knowledge than me have set.

Beyond that JCNs mindset and equipment guidance is spot on.

[Clusterfrack]

To the experts here: if you were a new shooter, but you knew what you know now, what standard would you set for yourself? Or put another way, if a friend was a new shooter and asked you this question, what qualification would you suggest for them?

Good questions, and great topic for a thread.

My answer is: know your limits and have the discipline to stay within them.

[revchuck38]

From Karl Rehn's KR Training blog:

The Test – 90 points
5 Yard RoundUp – 90 points
Three Seconds or Less – 18 points
Wizard Drill – clean, no overtime shots
Casino Drill – 21 seconds no penalties
Four Aces – 5 seconds all A’s
15 yard Bill Drill – 6 seconds all A’s
F.A.S.T. – 7 seconds
7 yard Bill Drill – 3 seconds all A’s
El Presidente – 10 seconds all A’s
FBI Bullseye – 250 points
Failure Drill – 2.0 seconds all A’s

Karl and John Daub have collaborated on a book that goes into this concept. John also has come up with a "minimum competency test". I've downloaded it and printed it out, but I can't find the file right now.

ETA: Found it.

Minimum Competency Assessment (v3)
From John Daub, KR Training
Setup
Target: Preferred: KRT-2 (only white/gray areas). Alternates: IDPA (only -0 rings), IPSC
Metric (only A & B zones), RFTS-Q (only 8” and 4” rings), IALEFI-Q’s (only 8”, 4”
rings).
Gear: Your EDC (gun, holster, belt, clothing, etc.) – shoot it how you carry. If possible,
shoot your carry ammo. 25 rounds.
All shooting is freestyle unless otherwise noted. For “hands on phone”, use a prop phone (e.g.
empty ammo box/tray) and hold it the way you most commonly interact with your phone (held to
your ear to talk, two-hands in front while texting, etc.). Be sure to drop the phone on the signal.
When side-stepping, make one meaningful step either left or right; doesn’t matter which
direction, but consider switching up throughout the assessment.
10 yd Hands at sides. Draw and fire 2 to the body in 4.0 seconds.
7 yd Hands at sides. Draw and fire 3 to the body in 4.0 seconds. (5 rounds fired)
7 yd Hands in fence. Draw and fire 1 to the body in 2.5 seconds.
7 yd Hands on phone. Draw and fire 1 to the body in 2.5 seconds.
5 yd Hands at sides. Side-step, draw and fire 1 to the body in 2.5 seconds.
5 yd Hands in fence. Side-step, draw and fire 1 to the body in 2.5 seconds.
5 yd Hands on phone. Side-step, draw and fire 1 to the body in 2.5 seconds. (10 rounds)
5 yd Hands at sides. Side-step, draw and fire 3 to the body in 3.5 seconds.
5 yd Hands at sides. Side-step, draw and fire 2 to the body, 1 to the head in 4.0
seconds. (16 rounds)
3 yd Hands at sides. Side-step, draw and fire 1 to the body in 2.0 seconds.
3 yd Hands in fence. Side-step, draw and fire 1 to the body in 2.0 seconds.
3 yd Hands on phone. Side-step, draw and fire 1 to the body in 2.0 seconds.
3 yd Hands at sides. Side-step, draw and fire 3 to the body in 3.0 seconds.
3 yd Hands at sides. Side-step, draw and fire 2 to the body, 1 to the head in 3.5
seconds. (25 rounds)

Scoring
Count the hits. 1 point for an acceptable hit; 0 points for an unacceptable hit, including shots
over time, shots not fired.
23 of 25 acceptable hits (92%) to pass.
Safety violations result in failure.

[CalAlumnus]

What split times would be good enough?

That’s my question of the experts.

Who gets to set those rules or guidelines?

The individual shooter, informed by expert advice (see above).

Rather, I say it's not about how 'good' of a shooter, but rather how safely can someone handle a firearm. Stuff like throwing a gun in say a purse with keys and no holster has nothing to do with 'how good of a shooter' one is but it can definitely cause an issue.

I agree with the latter part. But suppose you have a student with all that locked down, but who has terrible skill and literally can’t hit a B-27 at 3 yards. Surely that person isn’t competent to carry. On the other hand, the standard shouldn’t be “Only USPSA GMs should carry.” The appropriate base level of competence that a person sets for themselves is somewhere in between.

That’s what I’m getting at. As a broad rule of thumb, when is a person competent to carry?

[1Rangemaster]

An interesting question, and one I've thought about a fair amount. I'm a confessed "drill/eval/qual" nerd and shoot them a lot.
I'd refer you first to Karl Rehn, who posts here, and has done a lot of work in instructing and testing, mainly in Texas. Another instructor is Claude Werner, who has a Patreon account, on YouTube,etc. Both of these gentlemen have put out a great deal of information.
I would not want to see a mandated standard, because bureaucratic systems could make it hard enough where few would "pass". Having said that, I've used the Gila Hayes standard of 5 rounds in a 5" circle at 5 yards in 5 seconds or less from a ready position. Werner increases the standard to 5 successful runs in a row- the 5^5 I think is how he expresses this.
@vcdgrips laid out some cold tests years ago which I was impressed with. COLD-no warmup-step onto the range and perform one:
*a hit from concealment on 8"@3yds in 2 seconds from concealment. *FAST test in 10 seconds or less(concealed). *8"target @5yards in 4 seconds with movement. *No time limit, draw and hit an 8"plate at 10 yards. *5 shot group on a business card at 5yards, no time limit. I try to do one of these once a month as a check. The thread is "Doubts about 9mm" from 3 years ago.
There's a lot more: don't leave a gun in a car. Get your face out of your phone! Have contingency plans-pepper spray, hand to hand skills. Some first aid training-and don't go to stupid places with stupid people to do stupid things(heard that from Farnam first).
Realistically, I think very few people-exceptions here-will work to a standard. I'd be grateful for the 5x5 to be met...

[Navin Johnson]

Is OP suggesting that if one cannot achieve an arbitrary standard, they ethically should not carry a firearm?

[Jason M]

For a new shooter, I would start with Mindset, go to Toolset, then work on Skillset.( * )

Mindset

- Possesses the right mindset as to why they want to carry
- Understands the legal consequences of using lethal force appropriately
- Has a plan and means to store the firearm when not in use

Toolset

- Selects a concealed carry system (gun, holster, ammo) that is sized correctly, safe, effective AND suitable for their lifestyle and personal risk assessment THAT CAN BE CARRIED 24/7/365.
- Has read and understood the Operator's Manual and can demonstrate all the basic skills (loading, unloading, etc.)

Skillset

- Can develop basic competence with their firearm at the range.
- Can develop basic competence in Dry Practice, drawing and reholstering. (I would give them something like Tom Givens basic daily dry practice routine.)
- Finally, to arrive at this particular thread's question, if it was up to me, as an initial new-shooter, I've-never-touched-a-gun-before-today learning objective, I'd use:

Under ideal conditions, with no time limits, place 8 of 10 rounds inside an 8" circle at 7 yards.

About all I can come up with. This is not my area of expertise, for sure, but it's interesting topic, as probably like most of ya'll, I've been asked "hey, I need to buy a gun, can you take me to the range?".



* Thanks Paul Sharp. This still rings in my head after 7 years, hearing this at Tac Con 2017 in Memphis.

This with the addition of assessment tools and non-lethal tools (white light/OC). Not everything is a gun problem.