Can someone define 6 o'clock hold please?

[RJ]

I have seen many places refer to a "6 o'clock hold", but have never really understood what the specifics are. It is typically described at putting the top of front sight on the bottom of the bullseye. This is usually accompanied by a picture, like the one below. "Sight Image 1", on the left, is what's described as "6 o'clock hold", where the top of the front sight is placed right at the bottom of the cross-haired circle:



I also see this used in firearm owner's manuals. For example, the below is taken out of my Ruger 22/45 manual. Here the bullseye is a filled-in circle, but the top of the front sight is still meant to be placed on the bottom:




But like I said, I've never seen a definition, so I am curious. Is there an industry standard bulls eye target that is meant to be used, with a specific radius for the center circle? Maybe an NRA target, perhaps a B-8?
Does it matter what distance this is shot at, or does range not matter? When did this targeting approach get started, originally?

[Noah]

I think it is specific to a specific target in a specific discipline, IE NRA High power vs rimfire pistol target shooting etc. There is no set standard, it just means you're zeroing for a 6 o clock hold on whatever YOUR target is.

Clearly, thats more useful for a fixed sport than it is something with a wider variety of target presentations.

Some people might say 6 o clock hold when they really mean sight picture 2 in your picture, where the top edge of the sight bisects the POI.

[GyroF-16]

Hi RJ-
When I started shooting pistols in the 1980’s, it was Intercollegiate NRA Bullseye matches, Air Pistol and some Olympic Free Pistol.
Those events are all shot at specific targets and fixed ranges. Using the “6 o’clock” hold was the accepted practice, while some shooters preferred “Sub-Six”, where you’d allow a bit of white to be visible between the sights and the bottom of the black bullsyseye.
With either method, the idea was that the shooter could get a more consistent sight alignment over the 60 shots in a match by seeing the entire bullseye and placing the sights in exactly the same place. This was in the days of “front sight focus, target slightly blurry”, so seeing the “X” in the center and aiming there wasn’t feasible, especially at 50 meters in Free Pistol. Using “sight image #2” in your examples, the shooter would be estimating whether they were cutting the circle in half on each shot, introducing more elevation error shot-to-shot.

TLDR - Sub-six is a good technique for a known range, standard target size and adjustable sights. Good for bullseye matches, but very little else.

[RJ]

I appreciate the answers so far, really.

I am asking, when a manufacturer publishes that a gun is a "6 o'clock hold", are they using some kind of specific range and/or circle size? Or are they all just a guess? If they had a factory accuracy test, what would they use for a test target? That would define a circle size, right? I've never come across a specific number, and it just bugs my inner engineer OCD.

I found a couple more examples. Below is what is in my Springfield Garrison 1911 manual about sighting. Springfield doesn't define it either, but at least they give a range, 25 yards.



I also found the same concept in the manual for my Ruger LCR. They don't provide a range, just to center sights on the bottom of the bull.

[okie john]

SNIP ....my inner engineer OCD.

This is the problem.

The near-random substitution of non-interchangeable terms on the part of the ignorant asshats who wrote the manuals you quoted has nothing to do with it.


Okie John

[JRV]

I responded to your thread on another site as well.

No, there is no “standard” when it comes to manufacturers defining 6 o’clock holds. Mass produced guns made on an assembly line? We are lucky if they’re zeroed for windage.

Call your manufacturer. Ask them the target size and distance they consider their “spec.” Some have insanely generous QA standards—think “anywhere within three inches of the front sight in any direction at 10 yards” is considered a “pass.”

[JRV]

Delete, double post due to bad internet at work and probably a cyberattack.

[Malamute]

I prefer my point of impact to be right at the tip of the front sight @ 25 yards, or an inch high. I use a 6 oclock hold to make a consistent sight picture to shoot good groups, but Im not shooting for scoring rings on a bullseye target, I want the impact exactly at or 1" above aiming point.

Shooting paper is a very small part of my shooting, mostly to check how a gun or ammo groups and set or confirm zero, and most often the black "target" is a small black spot I made with a sharpie on some random piece of cardboard I find. In shooting game or whatever other field uses, its simplest for me to put the tip of the sight where I want the bullet to hit, and easiest for using various guns and sights. I have exactly one gun with a dot in the front sight, so driving the dot doesnt make sense to me for my uses. I sight them all the same, tip of the front sight where I want to bullet to hit.

Shooting formal bullseye at known distances it makes sense to hold 6 oclock for consistent sight picture and have the impact be whatever inches of height above that to hit the bull, X or scoring rings you like, but thats not my use...


Hope my oversimplified world view makes sense.

Edit: Im also old school enough that 25 yards is the standard distance to zero a pistol at, which works fairly well as a field use starting point, though I check some shorter guns at 15 or 20 yards, whatever Im able to work with at the moment.

If the particular target example doesnt say what range it was shot at, then you would have to shoot it yourself to confirm, but the primary thing I take away from such factory targets is the gun grouped somewhat decently with whatever they consider common ammo and is roughly zeroed at some distance thats close enough for general use. I dont know if you can really get much more from it than that. Its then up to you to shoot it and see how it does in your hands.

Some guns in the past had the actual test target in with the gun, so no guess at to size and exact difference between POA and POI. Target models are probably more likely to have more details about test targets.

[Trooper224]

I responded to your thread on another site as well.

No, there is no “standard” when it comes to manufacturers defining 6 o’clock holds. Mass produced guns made on an assembly line? We are lucky if they’re zeroed for windage.

Call your manufacturer. Ask them the target size and distance they consider their “spec.” Some have insanely generous QA standards—think “anywhere within three inches of the front sight in any direction at 10 yards” is considered a “pass.”

Or just shoot the damn thing and figure it out. Everything doesn't need a slide rule or a flow chart.

[RJ]

Or just shoot the damn thing and figure it out. Everything doesn't need a slide rule or a flow chart.

So, you don’t have an answer to my question, and your contribution to the thread is an insult. Got it.