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Thread: Significant difference in performance, precision ARs vs bolt guns

  1. #1
    THE THIRST MUTILATOR Nephrology's Avatar
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    Significant difference in performance, precision ARs vs bolt guns

    So it wasn't until about 4 years ago that I broke into rifles, having spent most of my first decade as a shooter with handguns. Majority of my early rifle experience was with accurized AR15s; my very first precision rifle was a RRA Predator Pursuit on a home-built lower. Since had it re-worked to be a little more modern, still a favorite.

    Much more recently (Fall 2022) finally got my first precision bolt gun; a Bergara HMR Pro in 6.5CM, currently sits in the Magpul Pro 700 chassis. Also recently purchased a Ridge to have something handier, threw it in my old HMR stock, very happy overall.

    However, one thing I am not happy about: my groups. For whatever reason, I shoot substantially better with my precision ARs (16" WOA, 16" CLE, and the chopped-to-18" RRA mentioned above). I am able to achieve sub MOA 5 round groups fairly easily with factory match ammo (representative 5rd group here ; 5 & 10 round group from the same mag here, flyers and all).

    In contrast, I have never achieved sub-MOA with either Bergara (representative 5rd group here , 10rd group here). Given the significantly higher price point on the HMR Pro, this is disappointing. I realize a few factors are probably in play:

    1. The HMR Pro has a relatively thinner contour for caliber vs. my precision ARs, which are all as thick or thicker at the muzzle than my HMR Pro and shoot a smaller bullet with less powder behind it. I am inherently not a patient person and probably could give it a little more time between rounds (usually shoot 1 round per 30-45 seconds for 5 round groups). Wonder if barrel temp is playing a factor here.

    2. I use suppressors on all my guns; probably exacerbates issue #1

    3. Per online reading, Bergaras seem a little pickier with ammo. Have only tried factory S&B 142gr HPBT and Norma Golden Target 143gr HPBT so far. Will order a case of Hornady ELD as that is what bergara recommends on their site

    4. Point of my post - I have always sucked with single action triggers, including with 1911s and revolvers. All my AR triggers have the 2-stage LaRues in them and I couldn't be happier with them. I also have been very neglectful in dry-firing my Bergaras at home if I am honest with myself (they both have TriggerTech primary SS triggers)

    I think all 4 are contributing to the difference here in part, but wanted to query folks here.

    - Has anyone else noticed a big difference in accuracy between platforms?
    - How likely is the difference in barrel profile/heat significant here?
    - Of course will try other ammo in the Bergaras, but still a little disappointed; if the gun is that picky I am not sure how happy I will be. Have shot ~1" groups at 100M with my precision ARs using Wolf M193; would hope for at least around an MOA from the factory ammo I've put through my HMR to date.

    Appreciate any thoughts, just thinking out loud here. Appreciate input from more experienced riflemen.

  2. #2
    It is easier to shoot a bolt gun well than a precision AR so there is something amiss. I could not see your groups, there was an image loading error.

    The S&B is not match ammo. I have one gun that shoots it well enough and others that don't. It is fine to break in your barrel for the first hundred plus rounds. You should see better results with the Hornady match 140grain ammo. The Berger 140 match ammo also shoots very well with low SD and ES.

    The barrel on the HMR Pro should be good for a 10 round string with that profile. Make sure that the barrel is not touching the stock back to the recoil lug. You can always bed it with Devcon to be sure it isn't the stock.

    Make sure the action is not loose in the stock and torqued to the manufacturer's recommendation. Usually 55 in/lbs. You can play with different values here as well.

    The suppressor could be the problem as well. Pull that can and shoot it with a brake or with just the thread protector on. Not all cans play well with precision rifles.

    After you check everything then dial down the weight on the TriggerTech and dryfire.

    Edited to add: I just reread your post and didn't see you had it in the magpul chassis. You can always throw it back in the factory stock torqued to 55 in/lb and see if it tightens up.
    Last edited by Jimichanga; 03-26-2023 at 08:24 PM.

  3. #3
    Abducted by Aliens Borderland's Avatar
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    Probably the ammo. Bolt rifles will generally shoot more precisely than an AR. If you don't load it can be a challenge to find the 1 MOA ammo for your bolt rifle. They're all ammo sensitive.

    Check with Bergara and see what ammo they recommend. I'll bet it's a 1 MOA shooter with the ammo it likes.

    Standard barrel or heavy? If you want the best precision heavy contour is your friend. Only good for bench rest.

    This person is getting <1 MOA.

    https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...rgara-hmr-pro/

    Using

    https://www.federalpremium.com/rifle...-GM65CRD1.html
    Last edited by Borderland; 03-26-2023 at 09:13 PM.
    In the P-F basket of deplorables.

  4. #4
    Site Supporter ccmdfd's Avatar
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    1. +1 on trying different ammo. ELD-M always seems to work well for me. My Bergara 6.5 likes Bergers as well as Lapua Scenars.

    2. Also +1 on ditching the can for now. Put the rifle in its most basic configuration, then get it working well, then one by one add-on different things and see how the accuracy goes. Last year I bought a rather expensive Fierce rifle and immediately slapped a can on it as well as a fancy scope mount with a fancy scope. Was not getting good groups at all. Pulled the can off, used Plain Jane simple rings and got the rifle shooting awesome. Next step is adding the can back and evaluating the accuracy.

    3. Since I brought up scopes. What kind of glass do you have on the gun? And just as importantly, how is it mounted? Scope problems and incorrect mounting are very common causes of accuracy problems. In fact, I sent a Bergara back to the factory one time because I couldn't get it shooting well. I had to take the scope off of it as that's what they requested. They tested it in found it to be perfectly acceptable, 0.5 Moa and sent me the test Target to prove it. I put a different scope on the gun and guess what, it worked perfectly fine for me too now.

  5. #5
    I'd try FGMM ammo, then Hornady match or ELD, in that order, if I was stuck with factory ammo. I'd hazard a guess this is your main problem. As said above S&B isn't really match ammo.

    If its not really close to MOA (or less) with one of those... I'd start looking at barrel crown, bedding, scope bases/rings etc. Taking the can off to get a base line is not a bad idea. Loose cans/mounts can cause all sorts of grief.

  6. #6
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    I shoot around 0.9-1.2moa 10 shot groups with a chrome line AR, but it takes work. A bolt gun, its pretty easy for me to plop down and shoot sub moa. The bolt gun is significantly less picky about follow through. This is a "your system " problem > ar vs bolt problem.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by WDR View Post
    I'd try FGMM ammo, then Hornady match or ELD, in that order, if I was stuck with factory ammo. I'd hazard a guess this is your main problem. As said above S&B isn't really match ammo.

    If its not really close to MOA (or less) with one of those... I'd start looking at barrel crown, bedding, scope bases/rings etc. Taking the can off to get a base line is not a bad idea. Loose cans/mounts can cause all sorts of grief.
    I really like Gold Dot for precision. Its such a soft bullet that bore to bore variance seems mininal and Have yet to find a barrel that wont do at least decent with it.

  8. #8
    Supporting Business CS Tactical's Avatar
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    The easiest area to start with some pretty consistent match ammo like some Hornady 140 or 147 ELD-M's or Berger 140 or 144 hybrid target ammunition.
    See how that works out and post results.
    CS Tactical
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  9. #9
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nephrology View Post
    ...finally got my first precision bolt gun; a Bergara HMR Pro in 6.5CM, currently sits in the Magpul Pro 700 chassis. Also recently purchased a Ridge to have something handier, threw it in my old HMR stock, very happy overall.

    However, one thing I am not happy about: my groups. For whatever reason, I shoot substantially better with my precision ARs...

    - Has anyone else noticed a big difference in accuracy between platforms?
    - How likely is the difference in barrel profile/heat significant here?
    - Of course will try other ammo in the Bergaras, but still a little disappointed; if the gun is that picky I am not sure how happy I will be. Have shot ~1" groups at 100M with my precision ARs using Wolf M193; would hope for at least around an MOA from the factory ammo I've put through my HMR to date.

    Appreciate any thoughts, just thinking out loud here. Appreciate input from more experienced riflemen.
    Gas guns are harder to shoot precisely, and have different ergos than most bolt guns. Lighter rifles are much more difficult to shoot precisely.

    Any long gun requires a repeatable and stable natural point of aim (NPA), or "index", and I don't take it for granted that I can just pick up any rifle and shoot a perfect group with it. I have to get comfortable with it, and practice with dry and live fire. A lot of the dry practice doesn't involve pulling the trigger--just exploring my NPA and how my body interfaces with the rifle (cheekweld, eyebox, butt position, rear bag, LOP, balance, how the bipod feels when it's loaded, etc). Some rifles just don't fit me, and I'd be hard pressed to shoot the groups you posted.

    Also, I suck at benchrest shooting despite having earned a number of precision rifle podium spots. I don't practice shooting from a bench, and my groups show it. If I'm sighting in a rifle, or testing loads, I shoot prone.

    So... we can't tell if it's the rifle, the load, or you --unless you can self-diagnose by calling your shots based on feel or how the reticle lifts under recoil. Do you see anything different between your gas and bolt guns? Between the shots that were centered and not?
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
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  10. #10
    Sounds like an issue with your bolt gun or its load. There's a reason why gas guns don't win in PRS.
    #RESIST

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