Nils did a more deep dive into the scoop on some podcasts. He said he didn’t add it until this past year when he noticed he was getting beat on short stages with open paper draws by others that scoop draw. At his level .1 second on a few draws per match is the difference between 1st and 2nd Place at nats.Originally Posted by Clusterfrack
My biggest takeaway from those interviews is that the scoop draw is a tool but one that is added once you’ve mastered alot of other stuff.
Trigger control vs. grip….
Seems to be a lot of gray area and this thread has already become confusing because I think people are talking about the same thing with different terms.
If in the process of pulling the trigger, I also have movement in my others fingers, is that trigger control or grip?
Depends. Not everyone is a high level target master based on uspsa scores.
If you are talking pistols grip is important to remember the surface size of your hand to control what you can reach. And appropriately manipulate the firearm in a safe manner.
Last edited by camel; 04-01-2023 at 08:27 PM.
How does skill level at uspsa determine definitions?
It’s just usually something seen on the internet as a matrix I will admit.
I’m just making fun at uspsa shooters by the way.
That's my conclusion as well. I maintain a scoop draw because for some reason it was easy for me learn, and rarely results in a jacked grip. But the snatch has to be the core skill. Hands in various positions don't allow a scoop.
“There is no growth in the comfort zone.”--Jocko Willink
"You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
The following is simply based on my limited experience taking people shooting for the first time.
Humans can usually learn to aim and fire a gun extremely accurately in just several minutes of simple dryfire coaching (1st lesson). We are naturals at aiming and shooting guns.
This amazing, innate ability to learn accurate shooting lasts for exactly one shot. They usually center-punch the target on the first shot. The experience of simultaneous recoil, noise, and muzzle blast have the unfortunate effect of teaching an even faster and more permanent lesson (2nd lesson) to our nervous system that overrides our otherwise natural ability to aim and fire guns accurately.
I think people would mostly be very good at shooting non-recoiling laser pistols. I've always wondered if it's noise and muzzle blast more than the actual physical recoil. It would be interesting if someone could do a large experiment isolating each component to determine the degree of effect on average for new shooters. One could use various suppressed, subsonic examples of different caliber handguns, and also a precharged pneumatic pistol that had contrived means to make either a loud explosion or a pressure wave upon firing. My guess is that a loud explosion, coupled with a small air charge expelled into the shooter face, might be more deleterious on a new shooters ability to learn than physically felt recoil, but who knows? It would be interesting to know what the critical thresholds were on average.
I think the most generic technical problem is developing somewhat ineffable coping mechanisms for overriding the 2nd lesson. These probably come about by repeatedly practicing more specific technical skills, but are perhaps not reducible to a simple aggregate of those technical skills. A high level shooter will still be able to shoot quite well with a purposely funny grip, stance, and jacked up trigger manipulation techniques if they actually wanted to do so. I think this is partly because they have inculcated deep physiological/neurological coping mechanisms that allow them to suppress the 2nd lesson in favor of expressing 1st lesson type skills with less interference.
I wish I knew more about how to avoid 2nd lesson problems for both new shooters and for myself. It seems to me that 1st lesson issues and 2nd lesson issues tend to be lumped together in sub-optimal ways. Cooper had an explicit strategy of surprise break trigger prep, which Pressburg seems to have built upon, but that seems not to address the problem at its most fundamental level. I have practiced methods to remediate 2nd lesson issues such as alternating ball'n'dummy, negative space targets, shooting fast at large backstops while focusing on the gun, shooting with eyes closed to develop somatic awareness, among others. 2nd lesson problems generally don't seem to be addressed as explicitly and fundamentally at a pedagogical level as I wish they were. It's as if people are generally allowed to learn the 2nd lesson as deeply as possible before it's formally addressed.
A without a bang brings it’s own set of problems:
Wow. 99 problems, but a flinch ain't one.
Bill Rogers told us that in his opinion the ideal beginners pistol would be a suppressed .22. There's probably a reason he teaches his beginners classes using .22.
It is, IMO, the noise/overpressure event more than recoil. You have to work for a while to overcome the blink that comes with each shot, which is the reaction to the sound pressure. These reactions are innate in us all, it takes different folks differing amounts of time and exposure to overcome them consistently.
Adding nothing to the conversation since 2015....
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