The biggest technical problem shooters have?

[rob_s]

Not disagreeing necessarily but counterpoint is that a good draw incorporates a lot of component skills that are useful beyond merely the draw itself:

Building a good grip consistently
Muscle relaxation
Economy of movement
Isolation of tension
Index

I think the main issue is the opportunity cost of focusing on draws well into the territory of diminishing returns.

I also consider the most important element of a good draw is creating a durable grip that can survive something like a Bill Drill without breaking down.

Practicing whipping the gun out as fast as possible with an inconsistent index and poor grip has an exceptionally limited training value.

Im specifically referring to prioritizing a speed draw, or draw to first shot, time over getting a GOOD draw and the associated good grip.

I’m advocating taking that extra 0.20 second to get it right.

[JohnO]

Germane to the conversation.

[JCN]

Im specifically referring to prioritizing a speed draw, or draw to first shot, time over getting a GOOD draw and the associated good grip.

I’m advocating taking that extra 0.20 second to get it right.

There is a danger to that line of logic though.

You can see it play out in the SWYNTS thread:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....o-see-training

By training speed PLUS accuracy, you get a more reproducible grip AT speed.

Otherwise people can run the risk of just staying slow and sloppy.

Speed for speed's sake is a fool's errand. Agreed.

But most people who know... chase speed PLUS accuracy.

And that's how you develop strong fundamentals, IMO.

If you read through the SWYNTS thread you can see people who trained traditionally not be able to get a grip at speed... but by working speed plus accuracy, they get much better at BOTH.

If they just only work on getting a good grip and never experiment pushing in practice... they never learn to find additional efficiency.

I'm not saying you're advocating that, but some students take it that way and plateau early.

[rob_s]

There is a danger to that line of logic though.

You can see it play out in the SWYNTS thread:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....o-see-training

By training speed PLUS accuracy, you get a more reproducible grip AT speed.

Otherwise people can run the risk of just staying slow and sloppy.

Speed for speed's sake is a fool's errand. Agreed.

But most people who know... chase speed PLUS accuracy.

And that's how you develop strong fundamentals, IMO.

If you read through the SWYNTS thread you can see people who trained traditionally not be able to get a grip at speed... but by working speed plus accuracy, they get much better at BOTH.

If they just only work on getting a good grip and never experiment pushing in practice... they never learn to find additional efficiency.

I'm not saying you're advocating that, but some students take it that way and plateau early.

Yes you can’t work on getting a good grip/draw and then forever spend your time incrementally I roving it without pushing yourself to increase speed.

The original point, btw, was that the draw is something you did in a competition stage once (typically), vs shooting, transitioning, etc which you do many times each. Chasing an imperfect but fast draw to the detriment of everything else, particularly when getting a GOOD draw perhaps at the expense of a microsecond, can be so beneficial to those shots and transitions.

[Cory]

There is a danger to that line of logic though.

You can see it play out in the SWYNTS thread:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....o-see-training

By training speed PLUS accuracy, you get a more reproducible grip AT speed.

Otherwise people can run the risk of just staying slow and sloppy.

Speed for speed's sake is a fool's errand. Agreed.

But most people who know... chase speed PLUS accuracy.

And that's how you develop strong fundamentals, IMO.

If you read through the SWYNTS thread you can see people who trained traditionally not be able to get a grip at speed... but by working speed plus accuracy, they get much better at BOTH.

If they just only work on getting a good grip and never experiment pushing in practice... they never learn to find additional efficiency.

I'm not saying you're advocating that, but some students take it that way and plateau early.

It's cool to me how different high level shooters can get there different ways. Building speed and accuracy at the same time is pretty counter to what I remember Steve Anderson advocating in his podcasts. I believe he talks about building raw speed, and pure accuracy in isolation and then marrying them up in "match mode".

I think there is more than one way to get to a high proficency level. The common denominator in my mind is having a plan for focused and intentional dry fire. But even that is up for debate with some folks.

[JCN]

It's cool to me how different high level shooters can get there different ways. Building speed and accuracy at the same time is pretty counter to what I remember Steve Anderson advocating in his podcasts. I believe he talks about building raw speed, and pure accuracy in isolation and then marrying them up in "match mode".

I think there is more than one way to get to a high proficency level. The common denominator in my mind is having a plan for focused and intentional dry fire. But even that is up for debate with some folks.

I think a lot of times people say different things but mean the same or similar things.

So with the SWYNTS, I purposely picked three different gear / speeds with different technical requirements and then married them together.

I had people work on draw mechanics at speed at the 3 yard string… but then accuracy using the same initial hand speed at 15 yards. All in the same drill.

So one part was building speed and the other, accuracy. Not together on the same string, because it’s best to isolate variables.

But building speed and accuracy in one drill… utilizing different strings to frame and contextualize the vision and mechanics if that makes sense.

[Clusterfrack]

Nils Jonasson on Snatch, Scoop, and Surrender draws.

https://youtu.be/rKY5_bw_ejk

[rob_s]

It's cool to me how different high level shooters can get there different ways. Building speed and accuracy at the same time is pretty counter to what I remember Steve Anderson advocating in his podcasts. I believe he talks about building raw speed, and pure accuracy in isolation and then marrying them up in "match mode".

it's often helpful to know the history of the endeavor. and how many times all that is old becomes new again.

[DMF13]

Stoeger recently said that if you don't get a good grip . . .

The biggest thing I took away from Stoeger's class, for me, was that trying to be fast off the draw, coming into a new position, or after a reload, resulted in me firing the shot before I had fully established a strong grip with my support hand. We did a drill where we fired two shots off the draw, ran to a new position, and fired two more shots. I was frequently throwing lousy shots on the first of each pair, and the second would be in the A zone. He explained I was making the first of each pair before I had finished gripping the gun, and the second shot was good because my grip was fully established by the time I was ready for the second shot. Once I started concentrating on getting the grip established before working the trigger, I was making much better shots off the draw, and when entering the new position.

Mike Seekland is another very high level shooter, who frequently points out proper grip is essential to proper trigger control. In fact I had watched this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTMGArQ5aiA a few days prior to working the range for quarterly qualifications. One of the shooters failed to qualify, and I was assigned to work with him. One of the biggest problems is what Mike Seeklander describes in point three, starting at 5:36, in the video. I could see him adding more grip pressue each time he pulled the trigger. Telling him about it changed nothing, so I had him dry fire, doing a "surprise break" drill, where he would be aimed in, finger touching the trigger, but not taking out the slack, and then pulling the trigger on the beep of a shot timer. Ben Stoeger had us do that in his class, and unlike slow fire in dry fire, it clearly shows if there is a problem when trying to work the trigger, with even a little bit of speed. As soon as the struggling shooter saw the sights jump around, he understood the problem, and began to correct it.

I have the same problem, to a lesser degree. While I have lots of room for improvement on speed, accuracy is still an issue for me. Doing that "surprise break" drill with a red dot equipped pistol (thanks to @JCN for encouraging the use of a red dot in training, even though I'm iron sight shooter), clearly shows when I'm breaking the shot without moving the gun, and when I'm not. I'm still not where I need to be with my accuracy, but I've made big improvements through self diagnosis using that drill, and the biggest improvements for me, have come from improving my grip.

[DMF13]

It's cool to me how different high level shooters can get there different ways. Building speed and accuracy at the same time is pretty counter to what I remember Steve Anderson advocating in his podcasts. I believe he talks about building raw speed, and pure accuracy in isolation and then marrying them up in "match mode".

That is exactly what Anderson recommends, and many have had great success following his methods. I have read two of Steve's books, and listen to his podcasts. Sometimes I pick up new ideas I need, and more often I get reminders on things I should know, but have been slacking off on doing. I regularly recommend his books and/or podcasts to anyone who wants to get faster.

However, I have a slight problem with some of his training methods. I tend to put too much emphasis on his "speed mode," and I start to get sloppy. See my previous post about rushing the first shot, when establishing/re-establishing my grip, as that was a part of the problem. Also, he advocates not using a full grip throughout an entire dry fire session, as it could lead to "tennis elbow." As someone who recently went through a lengthy recovery from a severe case of tennis elbow, I understand his point, but I also think there are better ways to prevent that problem. Again, for me, I can't do 50-75% of my dry fire reps with a loose grip, while working on speed, and then actually do a full grip when I'm in live fire "on the clock." So, I try for consistency in all the fundamentals, whether I'm doing "speed mode," or "match mode."

I think there is more than one way to get to a high proficency level.

I agree, and in all things, I'm inclinded to pay attention to anyone who is saying, "this a way," rather than someone who insists, "this the only way." The most obvious example is with manipulating the gun, as what works for someone with huge hands, might not work for somone with tiny hands.