Practice Drawing to low ready as a deterrent?!

[UNM1136]

I'm not advocating for or against anything, except maybe keeping options open. This just feels right to post anytime I see the subject of drawstroke and ready positions come up.

Some words from the late, great, Paul Gomez:




As an aside, I get Forest Whitaker eye every time I see position sul, and the thought of it makes my wrist issues flare up. One "no-ready" position I truly dislike.

Also, some interesting options from Mike Pannone, as well as a thread on PF discussing it:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CJbvShbA..._web_copy_link

http://instagram.com/p/CJbvShbA-Kq/


Some of this may or may not quite be relevant to the discussion at hand or intent behind some of the scenarios mentioned. What I think is relevant is the systematic thinking, assessing the pros, cons, strength, safety, and performance of various techniques.
Then being able to flow into and out of appropriate techniques as the situation dictates. In some cases, maybe that's low ready? In others, maybe a high, compressed ready (aka averted #3)? Time, distance, and opportunity should dictate.

Other random thoughts:

"If all you have is a hammer..." I feel like the same applies to individual techniques.

For example, if all you have is a low ready, everything gets the low ready. This can easily lead to a cargo cult like mentality about technique, IMO.

Probably best to have, at minimum, both a low ready technique as well as a high ready technique (like an averted #3, NOT a "full Sabrina", temple index type).

Wow! Those bring back a lot of memories...Back in the 90s one of my martial arts buds was a Pararescueman who did enough time in the 24th STS to spend some time in the UK....He definitely knew the color of the boathouse at Hereford, and when I met him was an instructor at the Schoolhouse here in town.,

He had just come back from Gunsite bemoaning the lack of control of the gun at both the #2 Rock-n-Lock position and the Low Ready. He was a HUGE fan of the high ready as Paul Gomez described it, and for the same reasons. I have been using that a lot over my career. Another now retired SF guy held the gun centerline at what he called High Port, and pointed out that if you have normal binocular vision you were not creating much of a blind spot if your pistol at high port was in the overlapping fields of view from each eye. I avoided the argument by keeping the near vertical muzzle between chin and cheek level.

Then there were the years where boys clubs who spent a lot of time in shoothouses arguing that high ready positions were dangerous because of instructors on the catwalks and in multi story buildings, and the argument that a ND downward is more "under control", than a ND at an upward angle, and that in a stack an ND will likely kill a teammate vs a lower extremity injury. A CIF 18D of my acquaintance pointed that in multi story buildings downward NDs are every bit as bad as upward NDs, and NDs are just bad, all the way around, and he refused to abandon sound TTPs because of schoolhouse training protocols.

Since I took ECQC with @SouthNarc, I have found the Thumb-Pec Index to be my go to during building searches when opening doors, searching toilet stalls and showers in public buildings, etc. I also find it very handy when searching with a handheld light and not wanting to muzzle anything I want illuminated and when I want direct light on something, rather splashing my WML off the ceiling or floor.

In certain classes for certain groups I am required to teach Sul. And while it isn't too bad when working in a group, since that is what it is designed for, it is far from my favorite sorta ready position. Mike Pannone's mods were welcome and stolen a while back, because they just flat out make so much more sense while accomplishing the same job.

pat

[BarneyCallahan]

Practice drawing to low ready …? Yes. The particulars of that practice I’ll leave to others.

The scenario I offered in post #45, “What Would You Do?” is relevant to this subject. I’ll explain shortly. But first:

The reminders that @JohnO offered related to vehicle tactics are common truisms that I agree with and are related to the scenario I posted. But since vehicle tactics is not the subject of this thread, I’ll make only a couple of brief points, as they relate to above scenario.

If you’re in a vehicle that you’re not immediately able to move in order to escape danger, such as transmission in park, or worse, engine off, you are a sitting duck. In the scenario I posted, you (the person in the scenario) are in the passenger seat, unable to move the car yourself. Worse, your driver is oblivious, clueless to what is going on around her. If you were to suddenly tell her to run the red light, you’d probably be met with questions (“Why?”), rather than immediate action. As you check for cross traffic and try to get her to move the car, you’re taking you mind and eyes off the threats rapidly approaching from behind, loosing track of their behavior and possibly giving up any tactical advantage you might have (time is of the essence).

If you are armed and in a sitting duck, the common tactical advice is GET OUT, as JohnO alluded to.

A few general tactical truisms that apply: 1) Never give up; never stop fighting. A situation is initially only “impossible” if you decide before you ever start that it is impossible and give up. In which case you lose by default. 2) The element of surprise is half the battle. 3) Never draw on a drawn gun; never draw when someone has the drop on you. 4) Take the fight to the enemy.

The scenario I posted is actually something that happened to me back in the 80’s. I was a police officer (now retired), off duty that night. How I spontaneously reacted worked well and as I had hoped. This is just what I did. I’m not offering it as any kind of advice or recommendation. I posted because I think it reinforces the importance of being flexible and being ready and able (practicing) to draw to low ready, with a ‘I definitely mean business’ kind of demeanor.

When I realized these apparent want-a-be robbers/rapists/murders (whatever they were) were briskly approaching from behind, I quickly exited the car, faced them with gun in hands, low ready, and firmly asked, “Can I help you?” The apparent crook approaching my side immediately raised his empty hands and they both quickly turned and walked away into the shadows, as I watched. I never did get a good look at the other guy’s hands. We went on our merry way.

So, this turned out to be a non-event. But who knows what it could have been if I had not taken the initiative, surprised them and gotten the drop on them, rather than the other way around.

Being able to efficiently draw to low ready, with apparent competence, without notice matters.

[Erick Gelhaus]

I'm weighing past page #5, so, we'll see ...

Technical question regarding safeties.

In that situation, was the safety still on or off?

Would it change if you had a handgun with safety?

DASA?

Finger outside trigger guard?

Depends?

I can see a range of reasonable options.

Between 1911s and M&Ps, I've used handguns with frame-mounted safeties for the vast majority of my time using pistols (30+ years). Drawing to a ready, any ready, the thumb safety stays on. Drawing to the shot, the safety comes off once the muzzle rotates onto the threat, target. Finger stays on the frame (I used the frame/slide line), until the muzzle is on the threat, target.

Here’s a scenario that, ...
In the moment, you can’t see their hands. It is happening too quickly for you to check for cross traffic and instruct your driver to run the red light NOW!
What would you do?

The driving away responses were mentioned, I concur.

I'm not advocating for or against anything, except maybe keeping options open. ...

Other random thoughts:

"If all you have is a hammer..." I feel like the same applies to individual techniques.

For example, if all you have is a low ready, everything gets the low ready. This can easily lead to a cargo cult like mentality about technique, IMO.

Probably best to have, at minimum, both a low ready technique as well as a high ready technique (like an averted #3, NOT a "full Sabrina", temple index type).

While I'm pretty comfortable with a low ready, bent arm low ready (my eyes & optics driven) it is not the only answer, it is just a start point. Not that others haven't described it, I first heard it from Spaulding, I see the applicability of his Arc of Ready. Being able to work from Count #2 Thumb/Pectoral index thru a low ready to a compressed high ready and back addresses the various concerns and gives one a range to work in.

The "grab the slide" ready position is unique. That's the only example of it I've seen.

Fwiw, there is data & research, in peer-reviewed papers on decision-making, judgment, and ready positions. While neither a traditional low ready nor a compressed high ready were addressed, the work showed that the lower muzzle, the better the decision making and the fewer the mistake of fact shootings.

[DDTSGM]

The one additional thing I would ask you both to keep your eyes on is the muzzle/sight stability when you get there. Basically, could you put two shots in the same fist size group once you get there without wobbling or pulling off target in over transition?

It’s not just the time that you are trying to make, it’s the muzzle stability.


Note that if your draw doesn’t have a horizontal press out at the end, you won’t get much of the benefit from this.

Agreed, and I wasn’t implying tactics just technical commenting. The analogy to shooting while zippering would be shooting before starting pressing out from a compressed high ready. I estimate that I could probably still get thoracic shots on target from compressed high ready during the same time that somebody would be shooting legs or pelvis in a zipper. Either way would work in reality.

Philosophically I kind of like being muzzle on intended target early.

Would it change the calculus if there was a table or chair in between you and the target and zippering might not have the intended effect?

People tend to imagine their 'encounters' in ways that best suit their chosen tactics.

For the 'average' shooter one of the problems with the low-ready-lift or shovel draw is stopping the handgun before firing. Very often resulting in high hits. The saving grace is that if you intending to shoot upper center-mass those higher shots still impact in an area likely to cause rapid incapacitation.

Another problem occurs if you happen to be in close proximity to something - such as a table or counter - that inhibits your ability to complete the draw.

A good drill is to have two partners hold a lathe strip approximately bellybutton height about a foot away from your body then draw. This shows the limitations of the low-ready - lift draw.

[DacoRoman]

I tried the two drills.

I shot controlled/reactive to the dot pairs (dot confirmation for each shot) from 1) 45 deg Low Ready and 2) hand on the Holstered Gun, at 5 yards.

Below are the couple of videos my buddy took so you can see my starting positions; these were my best runs for each (I apologize for not telling my buddy to tape from the rear so you can see the target):

From the Low Ready: .81s/.34s 2A’s (I did get a .77s/.32s but with 1 Charlie)
From Hand on the Gun: .95s/.32s 2A’s (I did get a .92/.35s but with 1 Charlie)

Impression number one is that I need more practice to get the draw/presentation faster
Impression number two, is that for me...I seemed to find the iterations from the low ready technically easier, that is a smidge faster and easier to keep Charlies from creeping in - which is odd since I haven't practiced a presentation from the hard low ready in forever.

But...for me, as a civilian, I still think that the added advantage of not whipping the smoke wagon out prematurely with the hand on gun technique, over-rides the 0.08-0.15 second speed advantage to first shot that the Hard Low Ready provided me, at least in this test.

I will be working to consistently get 1.2s draws from concealment and 0.8s draws from Hand on Holstered Gun. And then work to improve from there.
And why is it that dry fire draws are significantly faster than live draws

Many thanks again to the contributors of this thread.

https://youtube.com/shorts/lmiyLVj5IGk
https://youtube.com/shorts/l5tghflc67M

[DacoRoman]

I'll just throw this up here too for the sake of completeness. This was done a week prior to the videos above. I ended up not putting them up mainly because upon review, the low ready was not nearly hard enough, it was way too shallow, but subjectively the gun seemed to be way lower than it really was, and I'm wondering if during times of stress one's "hard" low ready will in fact creep up toward a very shallow, flag the legs or pelvis type of low ready.. Just a thought..
The much more shallow Low Ready times were mid 0.6's to low 0.71s to first shot.


I'll also throw a video of a rep from hand on holster also - the times for this drill were very similar to what I got a week later (videos above).