Practice Drawing to low ready as a deterrent?!

[JCN]

I can’t imagine hand-on-holstered-pistol reaching those speeds. From low ready you already have a complete two handed grip established and your arms at the appropriate level of extension. All you have to do is bring the sights up to your eye line and press the trigger. From hand-on-holstered-pistol you have to remove the gun from the holster, orient the muzzle towards the threat, acquire a two handed grip, extend the gun out from your torso area, bring the sights to your eye line, and press the trigger.

I am going to add just a pure technical counterpoint, not related to any tactical or application standpoint.

I think depending on how you typically draw and acquire the sights… and how heavy your gun is and how small you consider your target, hand on grip would be preferable speed and accuracy wise to low ready.

So let me define some terms and variables. Say somebody is 7 yards from me, and I only consider upper thoracic 6 inch circle as my target. Sweeping up through the legs and pelvis I am not considering as being on target.

Now also, assume that a typical draw uses a compressed high ready intermediate step to a press out… and at any point from the compressed high ready you can pick up your sights and break the shot because the muzzle and sights are already on target, even before full extension.

The problem I have with low ready is the muzzle sweeps up and I also have to stop the muzzle once it gets there. That takes time, adds angular momentum to the muzzle and I don’t get sights or muzzle on target until the very end of the lift.

Whereas with a draw, I go through a high compressed ready and the muzzle does not sweep or move off target through the whole extension. It is more stable, and I can pick up the sights earlier, leading to an earlier trigger break.

I’m on vacation, so a flashlight is the best I can do. Look at the flashlight as the muzzle of a gun.



My normal draw brings muzzle to the target early so it does not wobble as I press out. I can pick up the sights early and the muzzle is also not wobbling so it’s easier to break difficult shots once I get there.

If you need some proof of concept, do it with a heavier gun or weight. If you use a two or 3 pound weight, which is similar to some of our competition guns, it’ll be clearer. In competition we do a lot of punch out presentations from single hand low.

I suspect this is what @JHC friend was suggesting or demonstrating.

Of note, the smaller and more technical the target, the more I would prefer a hand on grip to a low ready because I don’t want to take the time to stop and steady the muzzle off a transition (in this case it’s a low to high transition instead of a side to side transition).

Just my $0.02 of some additional considerations without any comments on technical application or tactics.

[WobblyPossum]

Excellent post about the technical aspects @JCN. I’ll play around with this dry later and see how close I can get the times between the start positions.

[JHC]

With the hoodies with the pocket cut out: I worry about fouling the draw; threading the pistol through the hole and pocket, particularly with a service auto.

I also worry about learning yet another draw stroke.

I can see advantage to shooting through the pocket if very close if hand is already gripping 340 etc… in pocket.

So far I'm seeing its blazing with a snubbie but sketchy with a G19 plus RDS. Haven't experimented with the 43 or 43X yet.

[JHC]

I really like the DC hoodies @JHC mentioned and I had some homemade ones prior to their availability but the truth is a lot of people that had certain upbringings are going to view reaching in a hoodie pocket as a prelude to a gun coming out. I think that has a part in the discussion as well.

Valid point I'm sure and perhaps akin to putting one's hand in a pocket for the true pocket carried piece. Unless one is walking along or hanging out at the gas pump with the hand in the pocket or the hands in the hoodie. Heck is this on the deterent spectrum as well?

Once I was visually tracked then followed in New Orleans and me making eye contact then deliberately putting my hand into a sadly empty pocket seemed to trigger an about face. (shrug)

@Clusterfrack

I've had a couple situations where I did the full grip holstered.

One was an aggressive panhandler that took issue with me declining the opportunity to contribute to his college fund and then pursuing me to my rear with fists balled up. This one was overtly gripped under concealment and that spun him around.

The other was an emotionally disturbed former employee alternately ranting and sobbing about an issue. That one I was bladed and looked like hand on my hip listening but it was under a sweatshirt with a full grip.

[BarneyCallahan]

Here’s a scenario that, I think, will apply to the subject matter of this tread. While it is a ‘what if,’ it could happen (and has). After reading, think about what you would do, or should do. Feel free to post your answer.

We’ll assume you (the person in the scenario) are an honorable person, legally (of course) carrying a concealed handgun (LEO or otherwise). You’re well trained and experienced in its use.

The scenario: You are the right front passenger in a car traveling down a four lane boulevard in the middle of the night in a big city. Traffic is light to non-existent. The car you’re in is in the #1 lane (next to the center line). There are dim streetlights and trees, creating shadows and an unreliable ability to visually discern details, such as a gun in somebody’s hand. Your driver, the only other person in the car, is not trained and is oblivious.

As you are approaching a red light you notice two men on the sidewalk to your right as you pass by them. As your driver brings the car to a stop at the red light, you realize that the two men, now behind you, have left the sidewalk and are walking briskly towards your car. As they walk, it is apparent that one of them is heading towards the driver’s side of your car while the other one is heading towards the passenger side, from the right rear.

In the moment, you can’t see their hands. It is happening too quickly for you to check for cross traffic and instruct your driver to run the red light NOW!

What would you do?

[DDTSGM]

Here’s a scenario that, I think, will apply to the subject matter of this tread. While it is a ‘what if,’ it could happen (and has). After reading, think about what you would do, or should do. Feel free to post your answer.

We’ll assume you (the person in the scenario) are an honorable person, legally (of course) carrying a concealed handgun (LEO or otherwise). You’re well trained and experienced in its use.

The scenario: You are the right front passenger in a car traveling down a four lane boulevard in the middle of the night in a big city. Traffic is light to non-existent. The car you’re in is in the #1 lane (next to the center line). There are dim streetlights and trees, creating shadows and an unreliable ability to visually discern details, such as a gun in somebody’s hand. Your driver, the only other person in the car, is not trained and is oblivious.

As you are approaching a red light you notice two men on the sidewalk to your right as you pass by them. As your driver brings the car to a stop at the red light, you realize that the two men, now behind you, have left the sidewalk and are walking briskly towards your car. As they walk, it is apparent that one of them is heading towards the driver’s side of your car while the other one is heading towards the passenger side, from the right rear.

In the moment, you can’t see their hands. It is happening too quickly for you to check for cross traffic and instruct your driver to run the red light NOW!

What would you do?

You've created an unwinnable situation. In this situation the first thing would be keep the car moving. But you aren't driving. Hard right rather than across traffic, reverse if no traffic approaching from the rear.

If they are too close for you to do the things you have listed, they are also too close for you to exit before they are upon you. Unless you already have your pistol drawn, you probably are going to be unable to draw before they are, again,upon you.

The last thing you want to do is be seated in an immobile vehicle with someone standing outside able to view your movements. But that is the situation you have described.

I don't see this as a draw to any kind of ready situation.

[JAD]

I keep safeties on and finger straight until I'm moving my sights to my eye. Safety goes off on the way up, as soon as off my sighting system safety is on

Yup, that’s how we’re supposed to manipulate both thumb safeties and decockers — on/off target, on/off safe/decocked.

bill jeans taught ‘draw to guard’ in my 250. I incorporate it at the range and in dry fire a lot. The main reason is that for me I practice drawing to the shot a lot, to build automaticity, to be fast. I think that’s a good idea and a good result, but the draw to guard reteaches that movement to have branching paths.

[breakingtime91]

I am going to add just a pure technical counterpoint, not related to any tactical or application standpoint.

I think depending on how you typically draw and acquire the sights… and how heavy your gun is and how small you consider your target, hand on grip would be preferable speed and accuracy wise to low ready.

So let me define some terms and variables. Say somebody is 7 yards from me, and I only consider upper thoracic 6 inch circle as my target. Sweeping up through the legs and pelvis I am not considering as being on target.

Now also, assume that a typical draw uses a compressed high ready intermediate step to a press out… and at any point from the compressed high ready you can pick up your sights and break the shot because the muzzle and sights are already on target, even before full extension.

The problem I have with low ready is the muzzle sweeps up and I also have to stop the muzzle once it gets there. That takes time, adds angular momentum to the muzzle and I don’t get sights or muzzle on target until the very end of the lift.

Whereas with a draw, I go through a high compressed ready and the muzzle does not sweep or move off target through the whole extension. It is more stable, and I can pick up the sights earlier, leading to an earlier trigger break.

I’m on vacation, so a flashlight is the best I can do. Look at the flashlight as the muzzle of a gun.



My normal draw brings muzzle to the target early so it does not wobble as I press out. I can pick up the sights early and the muzzle is also not wobbling so it’s easier to break difficult shots once I get there.

If you need some proof of concept, do it with a heavier gun or weight. If you use a two or 3 pound weight, which is similar to some of our competition guns, it’ll be clearer. In competition we do a lot of punch out presentations from single hand low.

I suspect this is what @JHC friend was suggesting or demonstrating.

Of note, the smaller and more technical the target, the more I would prefer a hand on grip to a low ready because I don’t want to take the time to stop and steady the muzzle off a transition (in this case it’s a low to high transition instead of a side to side transition).

Just my $0.02 of some additional considerations without any comments on technical application or tactics.

I don't think anyone is disrupting you can get a comparable hit from an established grip vs low ready. Low ready, I personally think, is there as a last resort deterent if the situation dictates. If I need to shoot someone, I'm just shooting them. If it's passed the flash light/pepper spray stage but I'm still trying not to shoot someone that is where a hard low ready and the willingness to kill someone comes in. But I also think "stitching someone up" as I present the gun works also. There are a lot of different ways to win a fight, mostly hitting them in upper a zone or the t-box in the head but starting to shoot someone in the pelvis as I move up to those zones probably doesn't hurt. Idk, we can argue this to death but attitude and willingness to be violent will avoid being violent, applying the violence will win it. I do want to go out and see which I can do faster. I think hand on gun while holstered has its place also, especially in a vehicle or at the front door of my house. Different situations.

[DacoRoman]

I'm not sure, it would be interesting to do. I think low ready for me is somewhere I get to when I can justify that I may need to shoot. I would never do a low ready unless I felt I was under threat of bodily harm or death, or my dependents are. It's my last step before shooting somebody, if that doesn't deter someone who hasn't presented the "I need to shoot this person or I'll be dead right this second" nothing probably would. I have one example that I think a hard low ready with a carbine kept me from shooting a really angry guy. Back in 2012 some guys burned a religious book in Afghanistan, leading to some people getting really angry. They approached the FOB we were at and we got sent (there were very few of us on the FOB) to be QRF for the 2 Marines on post. On approach there was one gentleman leading the mob and he had some kind of blunt instrument made of wood. Several attempts to get them to stop didn't work, including a pen flare. At that point we still had our carbines slung in a casual manner and I decided that it was I either show I was willing to be violent or it would escalate into us killing him and more of the mob. I took a aggressive shooting stance with a hard low ready and told our terp to let him know if he took five more steps I was killing him first. That stopped the movement of the mob. The rifles didn't mean shit to them, me showing I was willing to kill him did. That is what I reserve a hard low ready for, when I can articulate why I used it, to try to avoid killing someone.

God-bless, glad everything worked out.
I’m sold on the hard low ready for certain military and LE applications, and come think of it loss of rule of law, riots and looting type situations. For most civilian self defense scenarios not so much.

[DacoRoman]

I am going to add just a pure technical counterpoint, not related to any tactical or application standpoint.

I think depending on how you typically draw and acquire the sights… and how heavy your gun is and how small you consider your target, hand on grip would be preferable speed and accuracy wise to low ready.

So let me define some terms and variables. Say somebody is 7 yards from me, and I only consider upper thoracic 6 inch circle as my target. Sweeping up through the legs and pelvis I am not considering as being on target.

Now also, assume that a typical draw uses a compressed high ready intermediate step to a press out… and at any point from the compressed high ready you can pick up your sights and break the shot because the muzzle and sights are already on target, even before full extension.

The problem I have with low ready is the muzzle sweeps up and I also have to stop the muzzle once it gets there. That takes time, adds angular momentum to the muzzle and I don’t get sights or muzzle on target until the very end of the lift.

Whereas with a draw, I go through a high compressed ready and the muzzle does not sweep or move off target through the whole extension. It is more stable, and I can pick up the sights earlier, leading to an earlier trigger break.

I’m on vacation, so a flashlight is the best I can do. Look at the flashlight as the muzzle of a gun.



My normal draw brings muzzle to the target early so it does not wobble as I press out. I can pick up the sights early and the muzzle is also not wobbling so it’s easier to break difficult shots once I get there.

If you need some proof of concept, do it with a heavier gun or weight. If you use a two or 3 pound weight, which is similar to some of our competition guns, it’ll be clearer. In competition we do a lot of punch out presentations from single hand low.

I suspect this is what @JHC friend was suggesting or demonstrating.

Of note, the smaller and more technical the target, the more I would prefer a hand on grip to a low ready because I don’t want to take the time to stop and steady the muzzle off a transition (in this case it’s a low to high transition instead of a side to side transition).

Just my $0.02 of some additional considerations without any comments on technical application or tactics.

Interesting thoughts and demonstration. I’m hoping I can put the hand on grip to first shot vs from low ready to the test on a timer this weekend.

BTW Thank you all for your thoughtful comments. P-F comes through again.