Observation from testing the HST and Xtreme defender

[56kobra]

Shot with same 4.25” 9mm at same distance.
The 147 HST seemingly dumped way more energy initially in the first jug causing the cap to fly off. The 90 grain XD (not +p)
Basically zipped right through, the water spray was more from the weaker smaller jugs that it whe through next.

HST impact - you can see how it causes the bottle to momentarily flex on impact


XD impact - just a cross shaped entrance and the slo-mo video just shows it going in with no real movement on the jug
The water spray is from the jugs behind.


Exit :



I know this is another useless sample of 1 water jug test but I found the difference of each projectiles impacts fairly substantial. I wish I could attach the videos here as it is more pronounced. The XD did destroy the two additional water jugs which I attribute some of that to velocity and lighter constructed bottles. Laundry detergent bottles are pretty rigid and stout.

I didn’t see the fluted transfer monolithic transferring anything dramatic to the tide bottle and I made sure water was filled to the tip top prior.

Outside of shooting through barriers specifically, I don’t think this bullet is worth the cost or is dramatically better at transferring energy to the target.

[Molon]

The 147 HST seemingly dumped way more energy . . .I didn’t see the fluted transfer monolithic transferring anything dramatic to the tide bottle . . . I don’t think this bullet is . . dramatically better at transferring energy to the target.

"As clearly illustrated in the relevant scientific literature over the past 20 years,
kinetic energy or momentum transfer from a projectile to tissue is not a wounding mechanism."

Dr. G.K. Roberts





WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE WOUND BALLISTICS LITERATURE, AND WHY

by M.L. Fackler, M.D.
Letterman Army Institute of Research
Division of Military Trauma Research
Presidio of San Francisco, California 94219
Institute Report No. 239




The “Shock Wave” Myth

By Dr. Martin Fackler

Wound Ballistics Review, Winter 1991 and the Journal of Trauma, (29[10]: 1455, 1989).





Ballistic Injury

By Dr. Martin Fackler

Annals of Emergency Medicine, December 1986




Bullet Penetration

By Duncan MacPherson

[56kobra]

Molon

Thanks for the links.

One thing I will say that I’ve noticed with regards to hunting is light for caliber, monometal bullets kill game very quickly and still exit despite the lighter weight.

I’ve shot 15 -20 deer and a few hogs with a 308 in multiple bullet weights - 168, 165, 150, 130.

I’m not here to say faster and lighter is “better”, but it’s at least as good, at least for ranges where wind drift isn’t a factor.

I have a 130 grain Barnes tipped triple shock load that has close to 3100 fps muzzle velocity. I’ve never recovered one and always get good scrambled insides with a nickel-quarter sized exit, even punching through both shoulders. Most of the time it’s a bang flop. Looking at sectional density and foot pounds of energy doesn’t really apply to monometal expanding bullets at warp speed. Some would argue a 165 grain soft point would penetrate deeper, which I highly doubt (comparing both bullets out of a 308)

I guess my questions is at some point doesn’t velocity matter?

I realize in handguns, the velocity doesn’t get to that number, and I know weatherby was a big hydrostatic shock proponent and promoted his magnum calibers.

I don’t say any of this to try and prove the Xtreme defender is a more legitimate round for handgun fighting. I’m just genuinely curious Because I’ve shot a fair amount of game with big slower and lighter faster. Bullet construction is obviously key.

I guess what these links point out is although a bullet may go faster, any damage inflicted will not be from some sort of shockwave related to bullet velocity.
Thanks.

[Leroy Suggs]

The expanded second generation 147 HST looks good.

[AlexSkillzz]

Xtreme Defenders are not more lethal than hollow points. Sometimes people forget that hollow points were design for the purpose of reducing the risk of collateral damage, being more lethal was a (secondary) side effect. Hollow points, however, are notorious for failing to expand usually due to clogging up, but also after going through barriers like thick glass, sheet metal, or bone. They are also dependent on velocity. Xtreme Defenders, however, are barrier blind and will likely perform as advertised 100% of the time, though, their lethality is less than traditional hollow point.

[JCN]

A few years ago I embedded ketchup packets in clear gel and shot bullets very close to the packets to see if any shockwave could rupture packets without a direct hit.

I used XDs and hollow points.

[Clusterfrack]

@AlexSkillzz @56kobra, it's worth reading some of the pinned threads at the top of the Ammunition subforum. Here are 3 relevant to this thread.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....f-Defense-Ammo
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....y-load-testing
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....er-Penetration

[45dotACP]

Xtreme Defenders are not more lethal than hollow points. Sometimes people forget that hollow points were design for the purpose of reducing the risk of collateral damage, being more lethal was a (secondary) side effect. Hollow points, however, are notorious for failing to expand usually due to clogging up, but also after going through barriers like thick glass, sheet metal, or bone. They are also dependent on velocity. Xtreme Defenders, however, are barrier blind and will likely perform as advertised 100% of the time, though, their lethality is less than traditional hollow point.

Like a FMJ or SWC no?

Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk

[JCN]

Like a FMJ or SWC no?

Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk

Better than a FMJ. Similar to a SWC. Less than a JHP.

[Molon]

Molon

I’m not here to say faster and lighter is “better”, but it’s at least as good,

During the infamous 1986 FBI Miami Shootout, one of the opening shots in the gunfight fired by FBI Special Agent Dove hit Platt in the right arm, continued into his thorax, but stopped just short of Platt’s heart; due to the inadequate penetration of the 9mm 115 grain Winchester SilverTip ammunition that was issued at the time. A deeper penetrating round would have ruptured Platts heart.

This one shot ruptured the brachial blood vessels of Platt’s right arm and collapsed Platt’s right lung causing a hemopneumothorax with 1300 ml of blood loss into the right lung cavity. Even with these wounds, Platt was able to continue shooting at, hitting and causing severe wounds to additional FBI agents; all because of a bullet that failed to penetrate a minimum of 12”.


While the average anteroposterior diameter of the upper thorax of an adult American male is approximately 9.5”, gun fights tend to be rather unpredictable by nature so they’re not always going to occur under the circumstances that the Internet Commando seems to assume that they will and you might just need more penetration than that 9.5”.

If a bullet has to penetrate the aggressor’s right arm before continuing to travel into the thorax of the aggressor, (say from a right lateral shot while the bad guy is trying to exit a vehicle in order to kill you) you’re going to need, on average, 12” of penetration to perforate the heart; more penetration of you want to pass through the left ventricle. This is why the FBI’s penetration requirement is 12” to 18”.







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