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Thread: 2016/17 joint agency ballistics test for defensive handgun ammunition

  1. #1

    2016/17 joint agency ballistics test for defensive handgun ammunition

    https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/b21...=1678600418188

    FOR AGENCY / LAW ENFORCEMENT
    DISSEMINATION ONLY
    Sanitized versions available for general use
    UNCLASSIFIED

    Is this legit? They seem to love the Xtreme Defense

    The Underwood XD uses the Lehigh Defense Xtreme Defense Technology
    bullet. They are the same bullet and in some cases Underwood uses slightly
    higher pressure which produces more velocity. The radial flutes increase tissue
    pressure and direct the tissue outward to increase wound diameter. There is one
    main characteristic to XD performance…. Velocity. The faster this round goes
    the larger the wound diameter. We tested the 9mm XD, 9 +P, 9+P+ and the 357
    SIG in multiple tests in gel and tissue. That’s 4 of the exact same projectiles with
    the only difference being velocity. The wound channel size increased exactly in
    proportion to increase in velocity. Unlike hollow points which are designed for a
    certain impact velocity to best perform as designed, the XD always works better
    when faster.
    The data sheet shows results from Phase 2/3 with enormous wound diameters.
    The radial flutes work perfectly in fluid/gel. Calculated PWCs are the largest
    ever recorded in all calibers!
    Many of our testers wondered if vectoring real compressed tissue sideways into
    tissue would actually destroy that adjacent tissue that is not directly in the path
    of the projectile. For those who think this will only work in a non-compressible
    fluid like gel as we initially did, we can confirm that this technology works
    extremely well in actual animal tissue with or without barriers. Remember that
    hollow points expand because tissue which fills the hole in the hollow point is
    compressed to such a point that the outward pressure inside the bullet pushes and
    tears the metal and forces it outward where friction then takes over to complete
    the expansion. If tissue can be compressed to the point of tearing metal (hollow
    point) then tissue can certainly be compressed to the point of tearing tissue. The
    Phase 4/5 tissue tests confirmed that in over 100 shots the measured wound
    channel was not only larger than that of an FMJ but in most cases was the largest
    wound channel produced in that caliber compared to all other rounds to include
    fully functioning hollow points.
    a. Penetration. All rounds in all calibers tested penetrated 15.2 – 20 inches
    with and without barriers.
    b. Reliability and Consistency. Every single shot did roughly the same thing.
    There is a 0% chance of failure to function because there can be no failure
    to tumble or expand (because they don’t) and no chance to fragment. This
    was the most Reliable and Consistent round tested.
    33
    c. Barrier Performance. The XD round, the 5.7 mm rounds and FMJs were
    the most barrier blind rounds tested. Not only did barriers not deflect the
    round it didn’t change the wound diameter much and only slightly reduced
    penetration depth. XD Barrier degradation was approximately 5%.
    d. PWC. In the Phase 4/5 realistic tissue tests the XD produced the largest
    wound areas and with the incredible penetration depth exhibited in the
    Phase 2/3 gel tests the XD recorded the largest overall PWC in all calibers.
    As noted the PWC numbers are inflated in the Phase 2/3 gel tests due to
    non-compressible gel, but the penetration depths are more realistic to
    compare.
    Overall: This was by far the most impressive round tested. After over a year
    of testing this round became the most requested round to test after some of the
    agencies reviewed draft shot data. In continued testing this round became the
    most measured and compared round in this test. We had more XD data points
    than any other round. Because the XD relies so heavily on velocity the results
    showed that the 357 SIG, 10mm and 9mm were the best calibers in this round
    followed by the .45 and then the .40, the exact opposite of the hollow point
    results.
    Last edited by 56kobra; 03-15-2023 at 01:22 PM.

  2. #2
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    I'd say not. No mention of the agencies involved, half of the rounds tested were boutique ammo, I'm unaware of "permanent wound cavity" being considered a valid parameter, and worst of all to this former intel analyst, no end notes.
    "Everything in life is really simple, provided you don’t know a f—–g thing about it." - Kevin D. Williamson

  3. #3
    Looks like some heavily contrived ad copy, especially the part on the first page about ''sanitized versions available for general use''.

    Smells like bullshit.

    Probably written by the exact same guy who put together the Strasbourg Goat Tests.
    ''Politics is for the present, but an equation is for eternity.'' ―Albert Einstein

    Full disclosure per the Pistol-Forum CoC: I am the author of Quantitative Ammunition Selection.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by 56kobra View Post
    Because the XD relies so heavily on velocity the results
    showed that the 357 SIG, 10mm and 9mm were the best calibers in this round followed by the .45 and then the .40
    More bad news for .40 S&W users...IF true.

    However, 9x19mm is a "Goldilocks" cartridge.
    It is an efficient, versatile, and practical handgun/SMG cartridge that continues to punch above its weight.

  5. #5
    This report was prepared by people with a shallow understanding of wound ballistics.

    From what I've recently seen, many people, including uninformed online gelatin testers, mistakenly believe the radial cracks produced in gelatin blocks by handgun bullets represent the permanent cavity (aka the vacuous term "wound channel").

    The radial cracks in gelatin simply record the diameter of the temporary cavity, which is what the Lehigh/Underwood Xtreme Defense bullet/Xtreme Defender cartridge produce. Most soft tissues are elastic enough to withstand being stretched by the temporary cavity without sustaining much damage (bruising). However there are some inelastic soft tissues (liver, kidney, pancreas, and spleen) that can be permanently damaged by the temporary cavity, but the damage is dependent on where these tissues are located along the wound track. Therefore the wounding effects of the temporary cavity are unreliable.

  6. #6
    Site Supporter Hambo's Avatar
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    The individual test reports were written by many testers, chapters were written and
    reviewed by many and final composition and editing was accomplished by the
    training company that provided continuity of testing and scheduling: Viper Weapons
    Training LLC.
    No mention of anyone who did anything. I looked up Viper Weapons Training, and there's no instructor names, just a PO Box address. Now it's time to ask ourselves the age old question...

    "Gunfighting is a thinking man's game. So we might want to bring thinking back into it."-MDFA

    Beware of my temper, and the dog that I've found...

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn Dodson View Post
    This report was prepared by people with a shallow understanding of wound ballistics.

    From what I've recently seen, many people, including uninformed online gelatin testers, mistakenly believe the radial cracks produced in gelatin blocks by handgun bullets represent the permanent cavity (aka the vacuous term "wound channel").

    The radial cracks in gelatin simply record the diameter of the temporary cavity, which is what the Lehigh/Underwood Xtreme Defense bullet/Xtreme Defender cartridge produce. Most soft tissues are elastic enough to withstand being stretched by the temporary cavity without sustaining much damage (bruising). However there are some inelastic soft tissues (liver, kidney, pancreas, and spleen) that can be permanently damaged by the temporary cavity, but the damage is dependent on where these tissues are located along the wound track. Therefore the wounding effects of the temporary cavity are unreliable.
    Source?

    Can @the Schwartz comment on this?

    I thought torn gel roughly correlated with torn elastic fibers i.e. overcoming elastic limit?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post
    Source?

    Can @the Schwartz comment on this?

    I thought torn gel roughly correlated with torn elastic fibers i.e. overcoming elastic limit?
    No. Shawn Dodson is correct re: torn gel.

    More to the point - the document linked in the OP is sone made up bullshit / ad copy.

  9. #9

    2016/17 joint agency ballistics test for defensive handgun ammunition

    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn Dodson View Post
    This report was prepared by people with a shallow understanding of wound ballistics.

    From what I've recently seen, many people, including uninformed online gelatin testers, mistakenly believe the radial cracks produced in gelatin blocks by handgun bullets represent the permanent cavity (aka the vacuous term "wound channel").

    The radial cracks in gelatin simply record the diameter of the temporary cavity, which is what the Lehigh/Underwood Xtreme Defense bullet/Xtreme Defender cartridge produce. Most soft tissues are elastic enough to withstand being stretched by the temporary cavity without sustaining much damage (bruising). However there are some inelastic soft tissues (liver, kidney, pancreas, and spleen) that can be permanently damaged by the temporary cavity, but the damage is dependent on where these tissues are located along the wound track. Therefore the wounding effects of the temporary cavity are unreliable.
    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post
    Source?
    I believe that Shawn's sources for his remarks are Fackler and MacPherson, both of whom have offered opinions similar to one another on the significance of radial cracking in gelatin.


    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post
    Can @the Schwartz comment on this?

    I thought torn gel roughly correlated with torn elastic fibers i.e. overcoming elastic limit?
    That's a good question.

    In cavity expansion theory, which first appeared in the works of Bethe (1941) and Bishop (1945), the energy required to open a cavity from zero radius in a material (in this case, ordnance gelatin) is determined by the dynamic yield strength and inertial dampening properties of the material. In materials with very low dynamic yield strengths (like 10% ordnance gelatin), at ordnance velocities and strain rates strength effects have a negligible effect on the radius of the temporary cavity. The inertial dampening of the temporary cavity's magnitude and harmonic oscillation (that is, the rebound of the temporary cavity that is seen in high-frame rate videography) is governed predominantly by the mass-density of the medium. The relationship between temporary cavity magnitude (and harmonic oscillation) is inversely proportional to the density of the medium.

    Because of this, in human tissues where dynamic compressive- and tensile-yield strengths play a significant role in mechanical failure (tissue damage), radial cracking in ordnance gelatin does not translate to equivalent damage in human soft tissues.

    In Wound Ballistics, by The United States Army Medical Service Historical Unit (1962), on page 140 of Chapter 2, ''Ballistic Characteristics of Wounding Agents'' by Maj. Ralph W. French, MAC, USA (Ret.), and Brig. Gen. George R. Callender, USA (Ret.), the authors provide the energy values necessary to estimate and compute the volume of temporary and permanent cavities formed by missiles passing through water and human soft tissues.

    https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA291697.pdf

    For every one cubic inch of temporary/permanent cavity volume, the following energy values were proposed—

    In tissue:

    Permanent cavity: 2.547 x 10-3 ft.-lb.

    Temporary cavity: 66.247 x 10-3 ft.-lb.

    In water:

    Temporary cavity: 737.7 x 10-3 ft.-lb.

    In order to compute cavity volume, simply multiply the kinetic energy of the projectile by the appropriate conversion value.

    I've never bothered to personally validate these figures through SPH analysis, so take them with the proverbial cum grano salis.
    Last edited by Clusterfrack; 03-19-2023 at 04:01 PM.
    ''Politics is for the present, but an equation is for eternity.'' ―Albert Einstein

    Full disclosure per the Pistol-Forum CoC: I am the author of Quantitative Ammunition Selection.

  10. #10
    Not this crap again. This "report" has been popping up now and then for the past few years. It was concocted by a group called Viper Weapons Training.


    https://viperweapons.us/ballistics-testing-1


    They also claim to have "COMPLETED TESTS" for U.S. Customs and Border Protection.


    "12. US Customs and Border Protection 2020 Wound Ballistics Test"


    "26. US Dept of Homeland Security, Customs and Border Protection, Special Operations Group, Border Patrol Tactical Unit (BORTAC) 9mm Ammunition Report. aka.Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) 9mm Ammunition Report. Results from a series of comprehensive 6 phase tests and analysis of 30 9mm rounds to include complete Terminal Wound Ballistics, Heavy Barrier Performance and Armor capability."


    I have never heard of this company conducting any official or sanctioned test on behalf of CBP.
    We could isolate Russia totally from the world and maybe they could apply for membership after 2000 years.

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