Hammer Pair Help

[Danko]

Greetings guys and gals. I'm looking for clarification on how to properly shoot a hammer pair. First, is a hammer pair the same as shooting a dedicated pair. Since I began shooting two years ago I find many people and firearms instructors using a given term to describe several different methods or techniques. I find this rather annoying, particularly when the person doesn't tell you his definition of a given term. Too many terms are tossed around at random.

Okay, to the subject at hand: I understand a hammer pair is two consecutive shots fired from a single sight picture. Do we agree this is the correct method/technique? Oh, I should mention I can shoot a controlled pair with reasonable competency, but have yet to move into faster trigger work, thus the hammer pair question. I guess the question boils down to when and how to break the second shot? What do I use as a cue to break the second shot, allow the front sight to fall slightly and fire, or simply mash the trigger as soon as possible after the first shoot? Despite reading many books on pistol marksmanship and armed self defense, no writer provided any actual instruction as to how to properly execute shooting a hammer pair. Now I just began wondering if there is more than one method to shoot a hammer pair?

I know any number of you could clarify this mess for me, so please respond and get me on track so I can advance my shooting.

Thank You!!

[Clusterfrack]

Great question @Danko.

Shooting “doubles” as fast as you can doesn’t mean “one sight picture”. In fact, I think this is a bad way to approach it. Even if I’m shooting 0.15 splits, I see the sights/dot moving during both shots. So, it’s a pair shot “predictively”, but not blindly.

Another option is to shoot the second shot as soon as you return the sight from recoil and see it on target. This is vision driven, and “reactive”. Typically those splits will be in the > 0.3s range.

Doubles is an exercise in index (natural point of aim), grip, and timing the return of the gun. It’s also good for learning to see what you need to see to call both shots.

Reactive pairs are what most people—especially defensive shooters—should be focusing on in application.

Let’s keep discussing.

[Danko]

Clusterfrack, you generally chime in on my posts, and I appreciate you doing so. You agree the firearms world has a problem with nomenclature? One given term isn't used to refer to one specific thing. When I shoot what I learned was called a controlled pair, I fire a round, watch the front sight rise in recoil, and watch it fall back onto the target. The moment I see the front sight return to where it was when I broke the first shot, I break the second. I fire two rounds, each with its own sight picture. I haven't worked on timing the sight return to see if I can break a faster second shot. What index or cue are you using to break the second shot so fast. All three of my pistols have stock triggers so I have some limitations. I guess they're in the 5.5lb range.

I've read several sources say a hammer is two shots fired from a single sight picture and I don't see how that's possible without missing with the second round.

[JohnO]

Forgetting about nomenclature the operative part of the discussion keys on Control and Distance.

How well the shooter can control the gun and get in back on target depends on when a second should should/could be fired. Then the distance factor must be considered. A shooter that can "hammer" two rounds into an Upper A-Zone at 3 yards will not necessarily be able to accomplish the same level of accuracy at 7 yards.

[David S.]

I’m not any sort of expert, instructor, BTDT guy. I’m just putting this out as a know-nothing bozo in hopes to further the conversation.

I also think two rounds with a single sight picture is misleading, at best.

Could we describe a hammer pair simply as “two rapid fire shots based on a single decision”?

[Clusterfrack]

...You agree the firearms world has a problem with nomenclature? One given term isn't used to refer to one specific thing.

Yes, although we're not the only ones. As long as we define our terms, I think we can figure this out. If someone wants to call it something else, I don't have a problem with it as long as I can make sense of it.

When I shoot what I learned was called a controlled pair, I fire a round, watch the front sight rise in recoil, and watch it fall back onto the target. The moment I see the front sight return to where it was when I broke the first shot, I break the second. I fire two rounds, each with its own sight picture. I haven't worked on timing the sight return to see if I can break a faster second shot. What index or cue are you using to break the second shot so fast. All three of my pistols have stock triggers so I have some limitations. I guess they're in the 5.5lb range.

I've read several sources say a hammer is two shots fired from a single sight picture and I don't see how that's possible without missing with the second round.

Your controlled pair is based on control from visual feedback. aim, break the shot, return the gun, see the sight picture, react to what you see (possibly adjusting aim), break the next shot. The human nervous system can't do that faster than ~0.3s splits.

In a predictive pair or double (maybe a hammer?), you commit to breaking the second shot before the gun has returned. That's the only way you can break the 0.3s split barrier and get down into the 0.1x range. Of course you could do this with eyes closed, but who would do that? You could also fire the first shot and ignore or not see where the second one went. A lot of people do that, and don't learn much from the second shot. Obviously, it's bad idea for defensive shooting if you don't know or can't predict where you bullet goes.

Forgetting about nomenclature the operative part of the discussion keys on Control and Distance.

How well the shooter can control the gun and get in back on target depends on when a second should should/could be fired. Then the distance factor must be considered. A shooter that can "hammer" two rounds into an Upper A-Zone at 3 yards will not necessarily be able to accomplish the same level of accuracy at 7 yards.

Excellent point. Pushing predictive shooting out from 3 to 7 to 15 yards is a great way to get better. But it sure takes a lot of work.

I’m not any sort of expert, instructor, BTDT guy. I’m just putting this out as a know-nothing bozo in hopes to further the conversation.

I also think two rounds with a single sight picture is misleading, at best.

Could we describe a hammer pair simply as “two rapid fire shots based on a single decision”?

I like that.

[Clusterfrack]

Have a look at this thread (especially the last post).

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....ctive-shooting

[Danko]

Thus, the need to ask the question I couldn't wrap my head around the idea of firing two quick shots with a single sight picture and not missing with the second. Again, this is another issue of a single term being used to describe several different things. The books I've read and the times I looked up the term on the net say two shots, one sight picture. Someone needs to create/write a book on pistol nomenclature so one term describes a single thing or event.

[Clusterfrack]

Thus, the need to ask the question I couldn't wrap my head around the idea of firing two quick shots with a single sight picture and not missing with the second. Again, this is another issue of a single term being used to describe several different things. The books I've read and the times I looked up the term on the net say two shots, one sight picture. Someone needs to create/write a book on pistol nomenclature so one term describes a single thing or event.

With practice, it's possible to fire two shots with 0.1x splits and have them hit very close together. This requires a well developed index and grip, and timing the return of the gun mostly by feel.

[Danko]

Cluster, I can totally except that explanation as it makes sense and I can see this being possible and achievable. So essentially, I can or should think of a hammer pair as a controlled pair fired faster, with less time between shots. All that's left for me to do is see if I can break a second shot a hair sooner than I can shooting a controlled pair. I simply ride the recoil as usual and time the sight return while breaking the second shot. I feel better!