Pistol Caliber Carbines For Patrol Use?

[Chuck Whitlock]

Of course they did. Unfortunately, some people and organizations cling desperately to whatever doctrine they first learned to the exclusion of new developments.

I wrote the proposal for my former department to transition from the PCC to rifles in 2002. As you would expect, the penetration potential of 5.56 ammunition was addressed.

Some weeks later, I stopped by a rifle training class to drop off supplies. While there I observed teams of rifle-armed officers approach a huge, largely empty auditorium. Each team dropped their rifles to the sling, drew their "finger guns", and cleared the structure. (The loaded real guns on their hips is perhaps an issue for another discussion.) I expressed my befuddlement to one of the military-trained rifle instructors. I was informed that one could not use a rifle inside a building because the rounds would go through walls and kill everybody.

To keep peace in the firearms training group, back I went to the computer to propose switching our rifle rounds to a "new", supposedly recently developed round that the FBI BRF said did not over-penetrate and would allow rifles to be deployed inside buildings. I don't remember which specific load we were using and what we switched to, but there wasn't much difference between them. The "new" round had, of course, been already on the market. An hour on the computer was a lot less time and effort than I would have spent trying to change closed minds.

"The hardest work some people do is labor under a false impression." - somebody smart

[Magsz]

I wasn’t sure if there might have been a more public “request for proposals” or “qualifications” or something.

I believe the ones I had knowledge of in the past were all available just not publicized.

Rob, I'm honestly not well versed on how RFQ's/RFP's work. I couldn't tell you what stage we are in/at because i'm simply not aware.

"The hardest work some people do is labor under a false impression." - somebody smart

It's amazing how people actively seek to undo the substantiated and proven work of others.

Ego is the enemy of progress.

[Joe in PNG]

The Good Idea Fairy is a real beeyotch.

[Paul Blackburn]

Where did your dept end up with the PCC direction?

[Poconnor]

9mm PPCs? Who suggested this idea? Pistol caliber carbines are huge step backwards in my opinion. Myself and other police officers fought long and hard for years to get 5.56 rifles for patrol. Dig up all the studies that the FBI did on the ballistics and effectiveness of 5.56 vs 9mm. Look back to the 90s
What helped us were tests showing that 5.56 penetrated less through dry wall than 9mm JHP.
Do not let the call of duty players players pick out “cool” weapons.
Do not let the naysayers go on about we have never used or needed a real rifle.
Remind everyone it is about preparing for the worst case scenario.
-active shooter at a school
-terrorists at the local mall
-suicidal mentally ill shooter
-armed robber wearing body armor
Get the rifle racks upfront in the vehicle where they belong. My department had the rifles in the trunk until we had a shooting right in front of patrol car. That incident changed admins minds. I can attest to positive effect of doing a felony car stop and coming out of the car with rifles at the ready. That incident and at least one other I can recall were resolved with armed suspects surrendering

Do not give the fight. This is why the road to promotion is not through the gun range.
I cannot believe how salty this thread has made me

[Paul Blackburn]

Back in the day the 9mm PCC was the HK MP5's. They were called SMG's not PCC's and have largely fallen out of favor for many reasons.

Now days they are mostly used in a personal security detail (PSD) role where discrete extra fire power is desired.

[KevH]

@Magsz - What state are you in?

I just read through this thread and felt like I stepped back into 1999 when all the post-Columbine nonsense broke out and there were actual articles in police journals about using a Maglite or Kel-Lite as shoulder stock to steady your pistol for hallway shots. Pure stupidity at its very best.

We still have a whole bunch of H&K MP5's, which are essentially a PCC. Do you know how many people carry one on patrol? Zero. Why? Because anyway you slice it 5.56 is just better under 99% of circumstances. The mag compatibility thing is just nonsense and guess what? If everyone is carrying an AR they're all using compatible magazines anyway.

The easy button is to buy standard 16" AR's like a Colt 6920 or S&W M&P line and issue those with an Aimpoint PRO or Trijicon MRO, VTAC sling, a Surefire Mini Scout Turbo, and Magpul PMAGS, and call it a day. A 16 hour "new user" course should work for the transition and an annual 4 hour in-service with built-in qual would keep everyone current.

[HCM]

Back in the day the 9mm PCC was the HK MP5's. They were called SMG's not PCC's and have largely fallen out of favor for many reasons.

Now days they are mostly used in a personal security detail (PSD) role where discrete extra fire power is desired.

No.

As someone who was doing LE “back in the 90s” this is not accurate.

Other than the FBI who briefly used semi 9 mm MP 5 before ditching them for 556 rifles, MP5s were most often in SMG (select fire) form and restricted to special units such as SWAT teams, some narcotics units etc. DEA issued most agents Colt 9mm SMGs but they were outliers.

My experience was typical, being shown and provided familiarization training within an MP5 and then being told unless you go to a tactical team, you will never see this again.

In some places, there was an early push towards patrol rifles or “urban rifles” as they were also known back then based on the same incidents from the 80s, which drove the transition from revolvers to semi automatic pistols.

Due to timid administrators, fudd lore and other bad information many police administrators tried to split the difference and transition from pump shotguns to semi automatic, full length pistol caliber carbines I.e. PCCs such as the first generation Ruger PC 9 & PC 40, the Marlin Camp Carbines and the Colt 9mm AR-15. There was even a small gunsmithing trade in modifying the Ruger PC carbines to take SIG and Beretta mags.

The arguments were that the pistol caliber would not “over penetrate” and the ability to share magazines with the officers pistol.

Of course, as already discussed in this thread, the over penetration argument was nonsense, and the PCC mags rarely actually matched the duty pistols.

It took the GWOT and the sunset of the 1994 AWB to get the 5.56 rifles which should have been adopted a decade earlier.

[DMF13]

Other than the FBI who briefly used semi 9 mm MP 5 before ditching them for 556 rifles, MP5s were most often in SMG (select fire) form and restricted to special units such as SWAT teams, some narcotics units etc. DEA issued most agents Colt 9mm SMGs but they were outliers.

I'll add this bit of trivia. ATF agents, including those not on their tactical team, had MP5sin the 90s, and when they transitioned to M4s they didn't get enough rifles for everyone at the start, so they kept the MP5s for a long time. I was on a task force with an ATF agent that still had an MP5 in 2003. At my previous agency, we briefly considered taking some of the MP5s ATF was disposing of in the early 2000s. We wisely opted to stay with shotguns, instead of the MP5s. Not sure if that agency ever got rifles, as I switched jobs shortly after that, and didn't keep up with their changes.

[HCM]

I'll add this bit of trivia. ATF agents, including those not on their tactical team, had MP5sin the 90s, and when they transitioned to M4s they didn't get enough rifles for everyone at the start, so they kept the MP5s for a long time. I was on a task force with an ATF agent that still had an MP5 in 2003. At my previous agency, we briefly considered taking some of the MP5s ATF was disposing of in the early 2000s. We wisely opted to stay with shotguns, instead of the MP5s. Not sure if that agency ever got rifles, as I switched jobs shortly after that, and didn't keep up with their changes.

Some Customs agents had MP5s too and they clung to them like drowning men after the merger into DHS. It was a Treasury thing.

I’ll stick with my M4.