Pistol Caliber Carbines For Patrol Use?

[jnc36rcpd]

While politics may enter into this, I wonder if the proposal is based on a firearms instructor or executive officer watching a YouTube video or reading a gun magazine article and believing the hype about a particular weapon. Of course, this may increase training time in that you'll have to run both a rifle course and a carbine course, but darn the torpedoes and full steam ahead if it got a nice write-up in Guns and Blammo.

Since concealment isn't an issue for patrol, the only significant advantage I see in a pistol-caliber carbine is reduced noise and flash. This can largely be mitigated by suppressors, or if that is not an option, a doctrine of donning ear pro when deploying the rifle.

[Magsz]

My opinion depends on the specifics of it being an “optional long gun.” Are the PCCs going to replace the 5.56mm ARs as the not-a-shotgun option, or just supplement them as a second alternative long gun? Are the PCCs going to replace both the shotgun and the 5.56 ARs to be the ONLY king gun option? Those are three totally different scenarios. I still think short barreled PCCs/SMGs have a real role in CQB/room clearing and I’m a fan of them for that purpose. A suppressed, short PCC/SMG is a pretty good gun when executing search warrants in a trailer park.

That being said, if a patrol officer is limited to one long gun, the patrol long gun needs to be able to handle everything that a patrol officer might be called upon to respond to. It can’t sacrifice most of the things a patrol long gun needs to be able to do in order to excel at one thing, CQB, because the officer might have to deploy it in one of the other scenarios. As well as being functional in a CQB scenario, a patrol long gun should preferably be able to pierce soft body armor. A patrol long gun needs to be readily able to deliver effective hits past 100y. A PCC is going to be more effective than the service pistol because it’s easier to shoot and easier to get hits with but it’s not going to be more effective than a 5.56 AR at most things.

If the 5.56 guns are going to be pulled from service and replaced with these new PCCs, I’d be totally against it and I’d make sure I respectfully shared my opinion with the people who will make the final decision. That idea should be a non-starter in 2023 with all the active shooter events and the increased prevalence of soft body armor among criminals. If the PCCs are going to be something a patrol officer can keep in the trunk next to their 5.56 rifle, I don’t see a problem with it. It just gives the guys in the field an additional option. Assigned to help execute a search warrant in a smaller, residential structure? I’d grab the short PCC. Doubly so if it’s suppressed. Assigned to the perimeter during the execution of the same warrant? I’d grab the 5.56. Providing security for a K9 officer on a track through the woods? 5.56. Silent alarm at the bank? 5.56. High risk traffic stop? 5.56. Reports of shots fired at the local school, mall, or office building? 5.56 all day.

All very good points. I don't have anything against a PCC I just strongly believe that it had a very limited and specific role. If the PCC's are meant to replace an aging shotgun fleet because we can't get 870's anymore then i'm all about that. I do not believe that a PCC should flat out replace a Rifle.

I also seriously doubt we are going to issue suppressors along with said PCC's. We are a pretty large agency and there's no way they're going to fork over the money for that. I would be massively surprised if that were to happen.

I will update accordingly once I have more info about what role the PCC's are designed to fill.

While politics may enter into this, I wonder if the proposal is based on a firearms instructor or executive officer watching a YouTube video or reading a gun magazine article and believing the hype about a particular weapon. Of course, this may increase training time in that you'll have to run both a rifle course and a carbine course, but darn the torpedoes and full steam ahead if it got a nice write-up in Guns and Blammo.

Since concealment isn't an issue for patrol, the only significant advantage I see in a pistol-caliber carbine is reduced noise and flash. This can largely be mitigated by suppressors, or if that is not an option, a doctrine of donning ear pro when deploying the rifle.

No doubt this is probably someone's pet project that thought the item was "cool".

[Joe in PNG]

One reasoning I've seen stated for PCCs is the ability for some to use the same mags as the standard service pistol.

How useful this actually is IRL I don't know.

[Magsz]

One reasoning I've seen stated for PCCs is the ability for some to use the same mags as the standard service pistol.

How useful this actually is IRL I don't know.

Fantasy. At least in my mind.

We aren't getting involved in protracted gun fights or long range patrols where ammo sharing is a thing. Could it happen? Sure. Has it happened? I would imagine it has. To me, this is not a reason to select a weapon for domestic Law Enforcement purposes. Just my two cents on that one.

[Borderland]

One reasoning I've seen stated for PCCs is the ability for some to use the same mags as the standard service pistol.

How useful this actually is IRL I don't know.

General Custer would probably agree with you about the ammo.

[DDTSGM]

When the first movement was made to adopt AR's as patrol rifles, I was pretty heavy in the MP5 camp. I could list a bunch of reasons why LE, especially urban LE, shouldn't make the move:

1) Over-penetration issues. That issue resolved itself, if it ever really was an issue, with the advent of better projectiles.

2) Down range danger zone. Obviously slugs and PCC rounds hit the ground before the .223/5.56 round will. A miss in a street engagement will endanger bystanders further down range with the rifle round. Although the round in this incident was fired by a bad guy and from an SKS (7.62x39) it is an example of downrange danger.

WICHITA, KS—Ross A. Williams, 40, Claremore, Okla., has been sentenced to 40 years without parole for killing a bystander during a shootout with police after a bank robbery in Coffeyville, Kansas, U.S. Attorney Lanny Welch said today.

Williams pleaded guilty to one count of bank robbery, one count of murder with a firearm during a crime of violence, and one count of attempting to kill police officers to avoid arrest. In his plea, Williams admitted that about 5 p.m. Feb. 17, 2009, he robbed the Bank of America at 1401 West Eighth Street in Coffeyville, Kan. He fled the bank on a bicycle. A few blocks away, he put the bicycle in the back of his black Isuzu Ascender sports utility vehicle and drove away. A high speed chase began when Coffeyville police officers spotted the SUV and attempted to follow. The chase took place on the streets of Coffeyville and lasted about five minutes.

Williams drove up Grant Street to the outskirts of town. He drove through a wire cable blocking the road and then ran into a tree. He immediately got out of his vehicle and used a handgun to fire at police officers, striking the windshields of their vehicles. Then he reached into the back seat of his vehicle for an SKS assault rifle, from which he fired about 30 rounds.

One of the rounds fired by Williams missed the police cars and traveled about a quarter mile down Grant Street to strike Willie Neal, Jr., who was standing outside his home. Neal and his brother had gone outside when Williams passed their house while being pursued by police. From where Neal was standing, he could not see Williams or Williams’ car. A round from Williams’ assault rifle entered Neal’s left front thigh and traveled into his right thigh, severing both femoral arteries. On the way to the hospital, Neal died of the wounds.

After emptying the assault rifle, Williams fled to a wooded area and police set up a perimeter. At about 8 o’clock that evening Williams was arrested.

https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/ka...0/kc040210.htm

FWIW - the Coffeyville officers I talked to said the round traversed a thicket of trees before striking Neal. They opined it was a one in a million shot.

At this time, I feel the down range danger zone is the only semi valid reason one could advance for preferring a PCC to an patrol rifle.

Terminal ballistics and the ability to penetrate common body armor outweigh that concern IMO.

[DMF13]

Has it happened? I would imagine it has.

It absolutely has happened, and the 30th anniversary of that incident was last week. February 28th, 1993.

https://www.odmp.org/officer/467-spe...n-david-willis
https://www.odmp.org/officer/466-spe...-john-williams
https://www.odmp.org/officer/465-spe...wayne-mckeehan
https://www.odmp.org/officer/465-spe...wayne-mckeehan

[DMF13]

At our monthly training event, the training division will be "evaluating a 9mm pistol caliber carbine as an optional long gun".

Sorry, but I have to ask: Is this a serious venture, or is it really just an excuse for the training division to have some fun with guns and ammo on the agency's dime?

[Magsz]

Sorry, but I have to ask: Is this a serious venture, or is it really just an excuse for the training division to have some fun with guns and ammo on the agency's dime?

I believe that it's a serious venture. I've been hearing rumors about this for a little while now. The training flyer is the first bit that makes this "official".

[Magsz]

It absolutely has happened, and the 30th anniversary of that incident was last week. February 28th, 1993.

https://www.odmp.org/officer/467-spe...n-david-willis
https://www.odmp.org/officer/466-spe...-john-williams
https://www.odmp.org/officer/465-spe...wayne-mckeehan
https://www.odmp.org/officer/465-spe...wayne-mckeehan

Can you elaborate on the specifics here? I've got general knowledge about the incident but no specific knowledge about LEO's exchanging magazines during this event.