Pistol Caliber Carbines For Patrol Use?

[KevH]

No.

As someone who was doing LE “back in the 90s” this is not accurate.

Other than the FBI who briefly used semi 9 mm MP 5 before ditching them for 556 rifles, MP5s were most often in SMG (select fire) form and restricted to special units such as SWAT teams, some narcotics units etc. DEA issued most agents Colt 9mm SMGs but they were outliers.

Not totally true. My department and at least a few others here in SF Bay Area had MP5's as long guns available to patrol.

The Remington 870 was available to everyone, but if you went through a class and qualified annually you could check out a MP5 (our patrol guns have the N trigger group) at the beginning of shift and check it in at the end.

At my department those that cared carried them and those that didn't care did not or chose a shotgun.

I'd say we had a steady number of folks that carried them up until 2007ish or so. Same with SWAT. By 2008 or 2009, everyone was carrying AR's. Our MP5's and shotguns basically sit.

Having spent substantial time with both the MP5 and AR, I will always choose an AR.

[jnc36rcpd]

Ocean City (MD) PD also used semi-automatic MP-5's which they kept well into the rifle era. I attended an IALEFI RTC sponsored by OCPD some years ago. Everyone had AR-15's except for the one Ocean City officer who seemed embarrassed by the weapon. It struck me how times had changed that what was probably a cool-guy weapon a few years previously was viewed as obsolete.

I also recall the Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority Police using semi-automatic MP-5's though I can't confirm that. Both Transit Police and OCPD certainly deal with extremely crowded environments which may well have influenced agency decision-making (especially if Flite Control rounds weren't yet available).

That said, while the MP-5 was probably a great PCC for its time, it certainly was not common-place.

[HCM]

Not totally true. My department and at least a few others here in SF Bay Area had MP5's as long guns available to patrol.

The Remington 870 was available to everyone, but if you went through a class and qualified annually you could check out a MP5 (our patrol guns have the N trigger group) at the beginning of shift and check it in at the end.

At my department those that cared carried them and those that didn't care did not or chose a shotgun.

I'd say we had a steady number of folks that carried them up until 2007ish or so. Same with SWAT. By 2008 or 2009, everyone was carrying AR's. Our MP5's and shotguns basically sit.

Having spent substantial time with both the MP5 and AR, I will always choose an AR.

I worked at a place that had M14s and M4s and I wouldn’t take one of those over a M4 either. In fact, the rec grade real M1 14s I shot were noticeably inferior to commercial M1As. People nostalgic for MP fives are why we currently have SIG MPXs. Our MPX experience has been a shitshow.

[Paul Blackburn]

I thought it was pretty well established that the PCC/SMG is a niche weapon system for those that desire to conceal more than a pistol. Personal security details, executive protection, diplomatic security, secret service, etc. In these roles there are usually multiple layers of other armed support nearby.

Definitely not a substitute for or a replacement for a patrol rifle or a shotgun.

[TGS]

I thought it was pretty well established that the PCC/SMG is a niche weapon system for those that desire to conceal more than a pistol. Personal security details, executive protection, diplomatic security, secret service, etc. In these roles there are usually multiple layers of other armed support nearby.

Definitely not a substitute for or a replacement for a patrol rifle or a shotgun.

I think that's well established, but that doesn't mean it's a hard rule that every department follows. This entire thread is about a police department adopting a PCC for general patrol use.

[TGS]

I worked at a place that had M14s and M4s and I wouldn’t take one of those over a M4 either. In fact, the rec grade real M1 14s I shot were noticeably inferior to commercial M1As. People nostalgic for MP fives are why we currently have SIG MPXs. Our MPX experience has been a shitshow.

Has this legitimate confusion on behalf of the agents regarding when/why they're supposed to use the MPX led to a wholesale restriction on their use by management at any of the offices? Or has everyone just thrown their hands up and said, "fuck it, just do you" instead?

[Paul Blackburn]

I think that's well established, but that doesn't mean it's a hard rule that every department follows. This entire thread is about a police department adopting a PCC for general patrol use.

I thought they were being considered for the motorcycle unit? Doesn’t that fit the niche of a short PCC?

[WobblyPossum]

Has this legitimate confusion on behalf of the agents regarding when/why they're supposed to use the MPX led to a wholesale restriction on their use by management at any of the offices? Or has everyone just thrown their hands up and said, "fuck it, just do you" instead?

At my office it’s “just do you.” We have 7 MPXs issued to agents (not counting the two or three our SRT members have which are in a different configuration from those issued to the masses). Three of those folks also have 11.5” ARs assigned to them and the other four do not so the MPX is their only long gun. For the guys who also have rifles, I’m not planning on dictating what firearms they feel are appropriate to take to a warrant as long as they’re within policy. I briefly had an MPX issued to me but handed it off to another guy who didn’t want an AR when I saw how close it was in size to the actual rifle. The way I look at it is that I can’t make anyone take a long gun at all and some of our people aren’t interested in ARs, likely because they aren’t “special” anymore. I’ve got more ARs sitting in the arms room than I have agents who want them. If one of those people gets all excited about the MPX and that gets another long gun in the field on an op, I’m all for it.

ETA: spelling

[HCM]

Has this legitimate confusion on behalf of the agents regarding when/why they're supposed to use the MPX led to a wholesale restriction on their use by management at any of the offices? Or has everyone just thrown their hands up and said, "fuck it, just do you" instead?

The latter though there’s not yet enough MPX in the field for it to be a big issue.

[HCM]

I thought they were being considered for the motorcycle unit? Doesn’t that fit the niche of a short PCC?

There is nothing in the OP about a motorcycle unit. Policing is regional - “road patrol” or “on the road” is simply how some places refer to uniformed patrol.