Pistol Caliber Carbines For Patrol Use?

[Magsz]

In 2022 my department went to G17.5's with Trijicon RMR's. After much teeth gnashing by the higher ups, it was approved and implemented.

To this date, our standard issued long gun is a Remington 870 SBS or 16 inch gun. Patrol rifles are optional post certification. We issue XM15 patrol rifles to our Road Patrol Deputies that opt into the program. We may purchase an optic from the approved list of optics and have it mounted by an Armorer. We are not allowed to modify the weapon. Most Deputies will use a drop in Magpul handguard to allow the mounting of a white light. For years, I utilized a Mossie tactics FSB mount because I couldn't get the weapon into our weapon racks with anything mounted on the handguard. The racks have not been changed so most Deputies store their rifles in their trunk weapon lockers.

At our monthly training event, the training division will be "evaluating a 9mm pistol caliber carbine as an optional long gun".

I have very mixed feelings on this and I feel like its a step backwards. 9mm PCC's off of the shelf are not easier to shoot than a rifle. They offer sub optimal ballistic performance to a rifle. The entire point of a rifle is to bring a superior weapon, ie a more potent cartridge to a situation that may need overmatch capability if you want to use that term. By going to a PCC we are limiting our lethality at distance. I am aware that the vast majority of LEO and Civilian based shootings do not occur at distance but in my mind, limiting capability is not the way forward. I'm not sure what advantage the department is thinking a PCC grants its users?

As an aside, like most departments, we ditched select fire Mp5's and even some .40 caliber colt pattern PCC's for rifles. We did this for a reason. It doesn't really make all that much sense to reverse this decision in 2023. Personally, I think the money would be better spent on SBR's and Suppressors for hearing preservation of the Sworn employees and the public.

I'd like some feedback on this as I plan on offering a written writeup in this regard but i'd really like some more education on this. Also, keep in mind that this pcc, at least how it was present to me is currently being evaluated for Road Patrol use, not specialty unit use where the niche implementation of an extremely short barreled weapon makes sense, ie in and around vehicles. I'm not even sure what platform we are looking at so I couldn't tell you if this was an SBR or a 16 inch gun. I will have more information on the 18th of this month. I will share as much as i'm allowed to better facilitate good discussion.

Thoughts?

[Borderland]

How often do the XM-15 rifles get used? Have there been any incidents where a rifle was needed? Are there concerns about an officer using a rifle on someone at 300 yds.? That might be a public relations nightmare and a dept. liability. Do you have a tactical group (SWAT or whatever the term is)?

I'm just looking at this from a non LEO angle, I have no LEO experience. PCC is a 100 yd weapon at best so how does that fit in with the needs of the dept?

Personally I like the rifle for SD but I don't have the politics to deal with.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Excuse me for commenting on an LE issue but it's interesting to me. Is part of the move political/appearance? Move away from an AR appearing gun. That was part of the offerings of the original Ruger PC9 and Beretta Storm, IIRC. They didn't take because the North Hollywood incident argued against a pistol caliber. One gun write who was pushing the Ruger, acknowledged this but said, it might give you more accurate head or leg shots. Similarly, the pump Remington 223 was pushed for appearance issues and the fake issue of easier transitions from the 870s - as if an officer couldn't learn to use an AR. Some argument that Mini-14s had the same nice gun appeal.

I could dig up quotes from that period politicians denouncing military style guns.

It's not like 223 recoil is a problem?

[ST911]

At our monthly training event, the training division will be "evaluating a 9mm pistol caliber carbine as an optional long gun".

No harm in getting your ducks in a row, but if it's an evaluation for an option I might see what develops?

[Beat Trash]

I would not want to give up the ballistic wounding of a 5.56mm, just to replace it with a PCC.

[GJM]

I am not qualified to comment on LE decision making but I have some thoughts about Pistol Caliber Carbines.

Pistol Caliber Carbines are great for training long guns on pistol targets, especially shooting steel at handgun distances. Otherwise they are mostly inferior to rifle caliber carbines. If blow back they recoil more and break more parts. If gas operated like the MPX, they can have reliability issues without intensive cleaning. They cost more than 5.56 AR carbines, they have less terminal performance, and have less of a realistic distance envelope.

Based on watching many PCCs in USPSA matches, I have long commented it is a good thing our military doesn't go to war with a PCC because their reliability is so much less than a good 5.56. If someone was dead set on a PCC, the JP-5 looks interesting but at $3,500 a copy.

[Screwball]

Personally, I think the money would be better spent on SBR's and Suppressors for hearing preservation of the Sworn employees and the public.

In regards to suppressors… I run a 5.56mm AR pistol (soon to be SBR) that I keep a suppressor on it all the time. Comes out to similar length as my Colt 6920.

That being said, if hearing protection is a concern… night/day between a suppressed 5.56mm and a suppressed 9mm. I actually don’t mind my 9mm AR that is suppressed… 6” barrel, and I shoot 147 grain. I do notice the rifle caliber… 11.5” with 73 grain (I do have access to 55 grain and 62 grain options). Even with ear protection, it is noticeably loud.

We run Glock 19s at work, with the hopes that we will be given the option for the 47. For me, Glock magazines are available… 15, 17, 24 and 33 rounders. My 9mm AR takes Glock magazines, as does my KelTec (19 grip; I redid the gun completely with MCARBO parts). I do have a Beretta CX4 and a PTR 9CT, as well as a .45 AR… but 9mm Glock magazines are my go to.

Personally, I like the option of having a pistol caliber carbine. Is it better than 5.56mm? No, but it does do some things better… like suppression. I wouldn’t want to be shot with a 9mm carbine, but rather not get shot by anything. Do I go to a 9mm if I’m grabbing a longer gun? Not necessarily… unless it is all I have. I don’t really think I’d feel outgunned.

Work long guns are M4s. We used to have 14” 870s… but the Boston Field Office pulled them. Those were probably the more useful options for us, since any deployment of them would be well within 30 yards. We could have to use a long gun out to 100 yards, it is less likely. Another option is that we are one of the larger groups of Federal L/E nearby multiple schools. BP coverage stretches for about 80 miles, State Police have a lot of area to cover to include a lot of I-95, the county is the size of CT and RI combined and the locals only have a few on duty at any given time. We are told that if there was a local school shooting, we likely would be the ones to respond, so I get that M4s should be part of the mix… but I still think 870s would be useful.

Do I feel 9mm carbines should replace your 5.56mm carbines? Not really sure about it, but I do know there are places where pistol caliber carbines do work. I can’t find a situation where pistol caliber carbines would replace rifles across the board.

[Borderland]

I was walking downtown one day during a lunch break when two uniformed LEO's walked past me with M-4's in hand. I commented to the guy I was with that we didn't want to go down that street so we took the alley. He asked why and I said those guys are going to a gun fight. Later that day I found out they were on their way to an armed bank robbery a block away. It was awe inspiring. That was a long time ago and I have no idea what patrol in that city uses for backup these days. Probably shotguns.

[WobblyPossum]

My opinion depends on the specifics of it being an “optional long gun.” Are the PCCs going to replace the 5.56mm ARs as the not-a-shotgun option, or just supplement them as a second alternative long gun? Are the PCCs going to replace both the shotgun and the 5.56 ARs to be the ONLY king gun option? Those are three totally different scenarios. I still think short barreled PCCs/SMGs have a real role in CQB/room clearing and I’m a fan of them for that purpose. A suppressed, short PCC/SMG is a pretty good gun when executing search warrants in a trailer park.

That being said, if a patrol officer is limited to one long gun, the patrol long gun needs to be able to handle everything that a patrol officer might be called upon to respond to. It can’t sacrifice most of the things a patrol long gun needs to be able to do in order to excel at one thing, CQB, because the officer might have to deploy it in one of the other scenarios. As well as being functional in a CQB scenario, a patrol long gun should preferably be able to pierce soft body armor. A patrol long gun needs to be readily able to deliver effective hits past 100y. A PCC is going to be more effective than the service pistol because it’s easier to shoot and easier to get hits with but it’s not going to be more effective than a 5.56 AR at most things.

If the 5.56 guns are going to be pulled from service and replaced with these new PCCs, I’d be totally against it and I’d make sure I respectfully shared my opinion with the people who will make the final decision. That idea should be a non-starter in 2023 with all the active shooter events and the increased prevalence of soft body armor among criminals. If the PCCs are going to be something a patrol officer can keep in the trunk next to their 5.56 rifle, I don’t see a problem with it. It just gives the guys in the field an additional option. Assigned to help execute a search warrant in a smaller, residential structure? I’d grab the short PCC. Doubly so if it’s suppressed. Assigned to the perimeter during the execution of the same warrant? I’d grab the 5.56. Providing security for a K9 officer on a track through the woods? 5.56. Silent alarm at the bank? 5.56. High risk traffic stop? 5.56. Reports of shots fired at the local school, mall, or office building? 5.56 all day.

[BobM]

After the North Hollywood bank robbery, the chief asked me what we should get to be able to counter suspects like that. At the time all we had were pistols and shotguns. My own encounter with a rifle armed suspect earlier that year maybe made him think it could happen here.
We went with a long gun in a rifle caliber to be able to either defeat body armor and vehicle sheet metal, or to be able to make more precise shots.