Pistol Caliber Carbines For Patrol Use?

[secondstoryguy]

I thought about this a bunch during "riot season" a few years ago as we were working out of vehicles a lot and doing more covert stuff. I came to the conclusion that Glock 34 or my stacatto with RDS and extended magazines has almost identical ballistics to alot of the subcompact PCC type guns with the added bonus of it being able to be easily wielded one handed. We had select fire MP5s and to be honest they never got used...a 10.5 carbine was almost as small and was a more versatile option. Maybe they would be nice as a quiet supressed platform for very specific uses but other than that give me an AR varient.

[DDTSGM]

I guess the one role patrol might have where a PCC/SMG is reasonable is if you want to offer the motors guys some sort of long gun but needed something to fit inside their storage containers on their motors. Otherwise, the PCC/SMG offers no advantage for patrol officers that justifies the compromise in terminal ballistics over a shotgun or carbine.

For a while I kept my SBR with LAW folder in one of my Street Glide's bags. Don't know how much extra room, if any, the top 'hockey puck' latches take up on the police models.

[DMF13]

Can you elaborate on the specifics here? I've got general knowledge about the incident but no specific knowledge about LEO's exchanging magazines during this event.

I don't have a lot of specifics, but the gunfight went on for over an hour, and the agents were running low on ammo, unlike Howell et al, who had stockpiled large amounts of ammo. Some agents got ammo from wounded agents that could no longer return fire.

Years ago I read a firsthand account from one of the agents who was part of the op, that discussed this, but it's been well over a decade since I found and read that, and failed to find it through a Google search today.

I have a copy of the Department of Treasury report, which mentions agents "conserved" ammo, but doesn't specifically mention getting ammo from other agents.

[john c]

Terminal ballistics and the ability to penetrate common body armor outweigh that concern IMO.

According to NIJ specs, 9x19 from a carbine length barrel should penetrate Level II soft body armor. There are a lot of factors surrounding this, like projectile construction. As I understand it, the NIJ protocol is with FMJ ammo, not modern duty hollowpoints.

[john c]

Fantasy. At least in my mind.

We aren't getting involved in protracted gun fights or long range patrols where ammo sharing is a thing. Could it happen? Sure. Has it happened? I would imagine it has. To me, this is not a reason to select a weapon for domestic Law Enforcement purposes. Just my two cents on that one.

From a gunfight perspective, yes. For admin purposes, only procuring and issuing 1 magazine per PCC because officers have 2 on their belts already has some merit. Less hassle, less accountability for issued items, easy replacement from inventory, etc.

[Magsz]

From a gunfight perspective, yes. For admin purposes, only procuring and issuing 1 magazine per PCC because officers have 2 on their belts already has some merit. Less hassle, less accountability for issued items, easy replacement from inventory, etc.

Counter point:

We currently purchase our own rifle magazines. I honestly can't even tell you if my rifle was issued with a magazine. I'm going to say probably a gen 2 Magpul Pmag or a contract GI magazine. It's disposable so..yeah, that's gone.

The admin doesn't want us running extensions on our magazines or any factory magazine over the 15 round and 17 round magazines. If we are issuing 33 round Glock magazines, some idiot Deputy is going to be running around with 33 round magazines on his vest/belt and gun.

For that reason alone, the cost savings are not worth the hassle.

Just my two cents on that one since i'm in charge of neither policy, purchasing or budgets.

[john c]

I work at a larger city agency, and though I'm not a fan of PCCs necessarily, I see the rationale of having something between a rifle and handgun. In no way should the PCC replace any other weapon, but I see value in adding more tools to the officer's toolbox.

1) I think it's insane that in 2023 officers at my agency are checking out 4 shot, manually operated 870s and taking them on patrol. In the revolver era, the pump action shotgun was the "heavy artillery" of the patrol cruiser. By the '90s, it seemed ridiculous. The last time I was at an active shooter incident a few years ago, 1/2 the officers were toting 4 shot 870s when we were looking for an AK armed suspect. Not good. I opted for my G17, but I figured we'd need someone to go hands on for doors, etc and my partners could be the cover officers.

2) Patrol rifle training, at my agency, requires a 40 hour initial class and annual qualifications at the Sheriff's range (we only have an indoor 25 yard range). This is burdensome, and a lot of officers don't get or stay qualified with rifles. It costs the agency a lot in release time for training and quals.

The key rationale is increasing the effective range of the officer from 25 yards to 50 yards, and dramatically increase the hit probability from 15 to 25 yards.

A PCC in concept would require less training, perhaps 10-20 hours, and could qualify on the 25 yard range during normal twice yearly quals. It would skip a lot of the rifle-centric tactics, like prone shooting which are rarely used in police work.

In fantasyland, a smaller agency could contact all the surrounding agencies with mothballed MP5s, of which there are quite a few from 90s era SWAT teams, drop in a semiauto trigger pack, and go from there.

A more practical and immediate solution would be allow officers the ability to private purchase Beretta 1301s, A300 Patrols, or Benelli M4s and qualify with those. It would require maybe a 3 hour transition class for the guys who wanted one, and be a part of the normal qualification cycle (which currently includes all of 8 rounds of 12 ga slugs).

[Magsz]

I don't have a lot of specifics, but the gunfight went on for over an hour, and the agents were running low on ammo, unlike Howell et al, who had stockpiled large amounts of ammo. Some agents got ammo from wounded agents that could no longer return fire.

Years ago I read a firsthand account from one of the agents who was part of the op, that discussed this, but it's been well over a decade since I found and read that, and failed to find it through a Google search today.

I have a copy of the Department of Treasury report, which mentions agents "conserved" ammo, but doesn't specifically mention getting ammo from other agents.

Fair enough. Although that's not patrol work. Without getting political, that was a "raid". They planned poorly and suffered the consequences.

[HeavyDuty]

From a gunfight perspective, yes. For admin purposes, only procuring and issuing 1 magazine per PCC because officers have 2 on their belts already has some merit. Less hassle, less accountability for issued items, easy replacement from inventory, etc.

This was the point I was trying to make.

[Borderland]

Yeah, that was my thought too. Lots of "evaluations" and demos out there.

I always enjoyed a vendor/evaluation demo. Killed a few hours out of my normal routine. It was nice that I was invited to attend but I don't think it had a lot of bearing on the outcome. Users rarely know anything about the equipment they use every day.