Pistol Caliber Carbines For Patrol Use?

[TGS]

Fair enough. Although that's not patrol work. Without getting political, that was a "raid". They planned poorly and suffered the consequences.

There's also a good point in reframing the question to minimize survivorship bias, in order to best address the root issue.

During the 2011 Navy Yard shooting, an NCIS special agent had a SIG P239 with no spare mags. He ended up downloading mags borrowed from another LEO to reload his mag.

Yes, best practice would dictate carrying spare ammo, particularly if you're carrying a single stack gun. No, he didn't borrow compatible mags. However, it still gets at the root issue that it is an example where compatible mags would have been useful and relevant. We can't only look at examples where compatible mags were successfully employed, but that we should also be looking at incidents where they would have been relevant and useful.

Now, don't get me wrong. It's definitely a worst case sentinel event, and I'm not saying it's a super important issue. But, we need to ask the question/research the issue in an effective manner.

[jandbj]

I have 2 PD’s in my area seriously considering the CZ Scorpion SBR’s to replace their patrol rifles.

One is a metropolitan dept where their SWAT guys will have all the options but regular patrol, SRO’s & motorcycle units will all get the CZ SBR’s. For the MC units it’s a portability issue & it fitting Harley saddlebags, for the SRO’s it’s a discrete package to carry in & out in a pack.

Other PD is for college campuses. Their decision is more based on not looking like an evil black rifle….

[jnc36rcpd]

I have 2 PD’s in my area seriously considering the CZ Scorpion SBR’s to replace their patrol rifles.

One is a metropolitan dept where their SWAT guys will have all the options but regular patrol, SRO’s & motorcycle units will all get the CZ SBR’s. For the MC units it’s a portability issue & it fitting Harley saddlebags, for the SRO’s it’s a discrete package to carry in & out in a pack.

Other PD is for college campuses. Their decision is more based on not looking like an evil black rifle….

Are they going to stay with the 5.56 or downgrade to 9mm? As for the campus, while they can SAY that they don't have evil AR-15's, I doubt any pearl-clutchers who see the Scorpion will not think it's an evil black rifle regardless of caliber.

[rob_s]

So we stil, don’t know for sure if this pcc eval is meant for replacing the shotguns, or replacing the rifles, or supplementing both, or none of the above?

Honestly my main concern would be general reliability.

I don’t have the highest level of confidence in any PCC I can think of. Can’t even think of which one would babe “least bad”.

Maybe GJM has some idea from PCC matches as to out of box reliability?

[mmc45414]

Based on watching many PCCs in USPSA matches, I have long commented it is a good thing our military doesn't go to war with a PCC because their reliability is so much less than a good 5.56.

I thought about this since you wrote it, and wonder if the USPSA data point might reflect game guns being the victim of gamers being gamers. Seems like all of the auto shotguns work perfectly fine when I go shoot skeet and sporting clays, but I can't seem to get through a single three gun squad without seeing one crap out. On the AR pattern guns the ejector being fixed to the lower is a bit of a fundamental flaw, but it works when it is (bent...) in the right place. My stock CMMG PCC works perfectly fine, I had to fiddle with it initially (bought the lower separate from the upper, it didn't leave the factory as a gun) but once I did it perks right along. And after I let my friends shoot mine and they saw how much fun it is several of them bought one (or two) and they all seem to work just great. There is a mix of Colts and PSA (one Ruger) so nothing JP level fancy. Back when primers cost three cents I would bring it mine out and let the group take turns shooting one or two of the pistol scenarios we just timed ourselves on, so it has a decent round count. Not sure it has ever really been cleaned.

Pistol Caliber Carbines are great for training long guns on pistol targets, especially shooting steel at handgun distances.

And this is why I bought mine, and it really has been a great tool, but in the process of learning with the tool I started to actually like it more than I expected to. And yeah, if the defecation is hitting the rotary oscillator and I swing open the safe door and my 5.56/LPVO and 5.56/RDO and 300BO/RDO and 9mm/RDO are all sitting there next to each other, the 9mm is not going to be what I grab first, but I would trust it if I needed to (147gn@~1150 is what I think it clocked G2 at).

But as I have said here elsewhere, when I bought it just seemed wrong, like I had been sent to the store to bring home a box of tampons.

[Jim Watson]

I thought about this since you wrote it, and wonder if the USPSA data point might reflect game guns being the victim of gamers being gamers.

Right, the typical PCC competitor is an inveterate parts swapper, kind of like the mix and match P365 tactician. And with lots of beta testing at club matches.

And the ammo! I know few Pistol Caliber Carbine competitors who shoot Pistol Caliber Pistol ammo in their PCC. They usually load light to just make power factor from their 10-16" barrels.


And while I am thinking about ammo, what about a Cooper Thumper? A semiautomatic SMG substitute in a magnum handgun caliber.

[jandbj]

Are they going to stay with the 5.56 or downgrade to 9mm? As for the campus, while they can SAY that they don't have evil AR-15's, I doubt any pearl-clutchers who see the Scorpion will not think it's an evil black rifle regardless of caliber.

5.56 will still exist at both for some uses. These are supplemental to their Glocks with dots at both depts.

[Magsz]

So we stil, don’t know for sure if this pcc eval is meant for replacing the shotguns, or replacing the rifles, or supplementing both, or none of the above?

Honestly my main concern would be general reliability.

I don’t have the highest level of confidence in any PCC I can think of. Can’t even think of which one would babe “least bad”.

Maybe GJM has some idea from PCC matches as to out of box reliability?

I'll have more info ideally on the 18th in regard to your question. I just don't know. I speculated that they could be an option to replace an aging 870 fleet. They could also be something that will only get handed down to specialty units that handle vehicle suppression, plain clothes operations and other things of the sort. I simply don't know at this point.

What I do know is that feedback is being generated from anyone who is attending the monthly training which includes any sworn individual. This leads me to believe that Road Patrol will eventually see this tool in use in some capacity if it is approved and then issued.

Depending on who you purchase your guns from the reliability is all over the map.

I haven't had a single issue with my Sig MPX's (sample size of 2) but those are no longer stock and haven't been in some time. My 4.5 inch MPX with a can has seen 23k rounds without parts swaps but i'm running reduced gas ports/plugs. I should probably replace the recoil springs soon.

My B&T guns are also obscenely reliable with the weakest link being the factory B&T magazine. My Glock lower equipped GHM9 was reliable for the 7k rounds I put through that lower/upper before swapping to a B&T mag lower. The only issue that developed was a stiff bolt release to the point where it was almost unusable. Racking the charging handle allows the gun to go into battery.

I wouldn't EVER consider an AR9 for patrol use. They're straight up crap. Do most of them work? Yeah, probably. They recoil harshly, they don't have reliable lock back and the parts combability is all over the place. There are way too many different specs/patterns out there.

[Jeff22]

A few of the local PDs in my area bought Marlin or Ruger or Colt 9mm carbines as a replacement for the shotgun back in the early 90s. All of the departments in our county have now replaced the carbines or shotguns with 5.56mm rifles of some variety. A few departments did go with the Ruger Mini-14 for cost reasons originally but to my knowledge everybody has been running AR platform guns for years.

I have one of the Colt R6430 9mm carbines that I bought in 1992. They are great fun to shoot, and I can shoot them on steel plates and on the local indoor range without fear of damaging the equipment. If I wanted to do the same practice with one of my regular ARs, I'd have to buy frangible ammo at a much higher price . So the carbine gets lots of use as a sub-caliber trainer. (I have a S&W AR-15/.22 I also use as a practice gun)

I have been shooting the Colt carbine in some local USPSA matches the last few years in the Pistol Caliber Carbine Class. I know many guys who have recently done builds on AR type 9mm carbines and some that have purchased carbines of other configurations. They are very much enjoying researching which trigger group and compensator and which optic to put on their new projects and what bullet weight to use for reloading and all that. I’m just happy to shoot my entirely stock Colt 9mm with NATO spec ammo I buy when it's on sale.

I just bought a Springfield Saint Victor carbine in 9mm. I put a Vortex Crossfire RDS on it and bought a bunch of 20 rnd Dura-Mag magazines to use for practice and in matches. I have a kydex mag ouch from Lytton Custom Holsters that I’m trying out and so far I’m impressed. Sighted the gun in today and then shot 150 rnds in practice.

Pistol caliber carbines are great fun to shoot and have application as a sub-caliber trainer if they’re the same platform as your primary gun. With a PCC you can shoot on steel plates or on an indoor range whose backstop is not rated to take rifle calibers without specialty ammunition. PCC has utility as a defensive weapon out to 75 yards or so but a PCC would not be my first choice, and absolutely not as a replacement for patrol rifles for LE use.

(It IS easier to train many people on a PCC than a shotgun. Adjustable stock, easy reloading, less felt recoil, possibly better sights)

[Magsz]

Ok then...

I went out to the monthly shoot and got a chance to put my eyes on the PCC that the agency seems most interested in, at least for the present moment. At the very least, this was what they were testing that day.

It was a 10.5 inch Wilson Combat 9mm PCC with a Glock magazine compatible lower receiver.

I wasn't able to shoot it as the trainers were unwilling to share ammunition as I was "only there to get free ammo". A blowback 9mm PCC is a blowback 9mm PCC, they're all the same out of the gate.

The gun was well made, nicely machined and finished on part with the vast majority of Wilson's offerings. As far as 9mm PCC's go, it was very nice. Was it any better than a 500 dollar Foxtrot Mike FM9? Probably not.

The gun was experiencing issues.

The trainer was over inserting the Magpul Glock magazines and causing the bolt to fail to go into battery. Additionally, the trainer seemed confused as to why the magazine would not drop free after repeatedly slapping the bottom of the magazine. I attempted to share with him that plastic mags with no metal reinforcements on the locking tab can be over inserted fairly easily if you're smacking them on the bottom. This issue is not commonly found with metal magazines. The trainer ignored me.

I spoke with another trainer and asked what the idea behind a 9mm PCC was? The trainer responded and said that we are looking to replace our 870 shotguns with a PCC as they "share magazines with our pistols". I asked the trainer if that meant 33 round stick magazines were going to be authorized for carry? The trainer said no, that we would be using the PCC with our existing 17 round magazines. I next asked what would happen if we run through our "combat load" of 52 rounds? What are we transitioning to? The trainer shrugged and looked saddened by my question.

The trainer added a few statements regarding why the AR9 is deemed the appropriate replacement.

He added that the ar9 is easier to shoot than a shotgun.
The AR9 shares the same duty round as our pistols
He added that there is a belief that 9mm over penetrates less than 5.56. People here love to cite that as gospel. The idea that a .223 round will blow through seven houses and murder everyone in the church down at the end of the block.

All salient points, minus the last sarcastic comment from me.

I asked why we aren't spending the money we would spend on these AR9's on expanding our rifle program? The trainer shrugged and once again just shook his head and looked defeated.

So, lets break this down.

We are trying to solve two problems.

1. The lack of available 870's and an aging fleet.
2. The fact that shotguns are difficult to manipulate.

Here are my issues with the proposed solution, ie the PCC.

1. The cost is insane. These things start at 2k a piece...I'm sure there's bulk discount/.gov pricing but the same can be said for patrol rifles. At retail, we could be buying two rifles for every one PCC.
2. 9mm Ballistics are vastly inferior to 223/5.56. The entire objective behind a long gun is to bring overmatch capability to the fight. I would say that the LA bank heist shootout was a pretty compelling reason for long guns in patrol cars. Although statistically insignificant, Active Shooter events are generally easier solved with long guns.
3. A combat load of 52 rounds of 9mm is putting us at a disadvantage. Statistically, it will solve the problem but it's not very comforting when I could have 60 rounds of 223 plus the 52 rounds of 9mm on my person.
4. A rifle affords its user the capability to hit at distance. The PCC is severely hampered in this regard. Statistically, the numbers work for us but I don't want to be involved in that outlier scenario where I need the capability and I don't have it because #stats .
5. To simplify ballistics, at 1600 fps, the 9mm is imparting something like 400-500 ft/lbs of energy. At 3200 fps, the 556 is imparting something like 1600-1800 ft/lbs. That's a pretty big disparity and with the appropriate bullet, i'd really like to have velocity on my side.
6. The training for an AR9 and a rifle are the same. If someone can't utilize a shotgun, they're going to struggle with either weapon. The money spent on expensive PCC's could be spent on more training for the Deputy to get them accustomed to, comfortable with and competent with a rifle.
7. Body armor is more prevalent than ever. I firmly believe that it should not be a restricted item and I hope it never does become one. If someone can buy ammunition and arms to penetrate my armor, i'd like to be able to reciprocate. Fair fight right?

Did I leave anything out?

I am going to attempt to contact the FBI ballistics research facility to see if they have any organized material in regard to this, ie 9mm versus 5.56 ballistics.

Any additional thoughts on this would be marvelous. Thank you guys.