XM-7 NGSW rifle program apparently stalled?

[HCM]

Dismissal of value is not what I was trying to convey. I'm wondering if maybe our military tends to historically overemphasize the impact of the rifle on the battlefield. I don't know how anyone can look at the war in Ukraine and claim that the infantry are not valuable. I think that what the war has shown is that the existing calibers in the current military rifles and squad automatic weapons work just fine for the role they fill on a full spectrum, peer-to-peer battlefield.



Absolutely. I wasn't trying to claim we wouldn't need that. I was questioning if, in the specific context of a fight in the Pacific with China, NGSW is even relevant. My understanding of what that war would look like (at least initially) is that it would be ships, aircraft, submarines, and rocket artillery shooting each other from basically over the horizon. Not infantry slugging it out on he beachheads.

While they won’t do it alone, and the NGSW likely isn’t the best tool to do it, there will eventually be infantry slugging it out somewhere. I do agree that Ukraine has shown the ubiquity of helmets and plates does not make 5.56, 5.45 or 5.8 platforms invalid.. In fact, one could argue that they make fire superiority via volume more relevant rather than less.

Pronouncements of pushbutton warfare making infantry combat obsolete sound just like the arguments for not putting guns on US fighters in the late 50s and early 60s. We learned the hard way that was a fallacy in the skies over Vietnam.

[Joe in PNG]

Absolutely. I wasn't trying to claim we wouldn't need that. I was questioning if, in the specific context of a fight in the Pacific with China, NGSW is even relevant. My understanding of what that war would look like (at least initially) is that it would be ships, aircraft, submarines, and rocket artillery shooting each other from basically over the horizon. Not infantry slugging it out on he beachheads.

Ironic, considering that both Imperial Japan and the USA basically thought that's what the first Pacific war was going to look like. One, maybe two big naval battles and the war would be over.

[DamonL]

https://breakingdefense.com/2023/09/...racy-problems/

Apparently, they are correcting fumes and accuracy problems.

[DamonL]

More info.

https://soldiersystems.net/2023/09/2...squad-weapons/

[Caballoflaco]

More info,

https://www.dote.osd.mil/Portals/97/...jyU5J6Kg%3d%3d

DOT&E published a classified combined Ops Demo and LLA report in May 2024, providing preliminary assessments of the effectiveness, lethality, suitability, and survivability of the NGSW system. Preliminary assessments from the report include:
• The 6.8mm GP ammunition provides increased lethality over the M855A1 (i.e., the GP ammunition for the legacy M4A1 weapon) against the tested targets,
• Soldiers assessed the usability of the XM157 as below average/failing, and
• The XM7 with mounted XM157 demonstrated a low probability of completing one 72-hour wartime mission without incurring a critical failure.

The Army should:

1. Continue to redesign the suppressor to reduce heat signature and burn risk.

2. Continue to reduce noxious off-gassing of the XM250 and XM7.

3. Continue to improve the operational reliability of the
XM157, XM250, and XM7.

4. Continue to address the complete list of
recommendations found in DOT&E's classified combined
Ops Demo and LLA report published in May 2024.

[jeep45238]

Lake City 6.8 expansion/groundbreaking has started:

Feb. 5, 2025 /PRNewswire/ -- Olin Corporation (NYSE: OLN) announced that its Winchester division, in collaboration with the U.S. Army's Joint Program Executive Office for Armaments and Ammunition (JPEO A&A) and Joint Munitions Command (JMC), celebrated the groundbreaking of the new 6.8mm Ammunition Facility at the Lake City Army Ammunition Plant (LCAAP). This facility is part of the Next Generation Squad Weapons (NGSW) Program and represents a significant step in the Army's modernization efforts.

Ken Lane, Olin President & CEO, noted during his remarks at the event, "Olin Winchester has a rich history in ammunition manufacturing excellence and support of the U.S. Military. We are proud to build on this American legacy through this opportunity to partner with the U.S. Army to construct this transformational facility and bring new capabilities to the Warfighter."

The ceremony featured remarks from Ken Lane, Maj. Gen. John T. Reim, Joint Program Executive Officer for Armaments and Ammunition, and Brett Flaugher, President of Winchester. Liz Miranda, U.S. Army Material Command's (AMC) Executive Deputy to the Commanding General, Brigadier General Ronnie Anderson, Commander of the Joint Munitions Command (JMC), Staff from Congressman Sam Graves and Senator Eric Schmitt's office, and other federal, state, and local representatives were among the more than 100 special guests in attendance.

"This facility will represent a significant step forward in equipping our Soldiers with the advanced munitions they need to maintain overmatch on the battlefield," noted Maj. Gen. John T. Reim. "With 90% of the work supported by industries in the Kansas City region and nearly 50 local businesses involved in the construction, this project will strengthen the defense industrial base, create well-paying jobs, and drive economic growth in the local community. Lake City has been central to our nation's ammunition production since 1941, and this facility builds on that proud and historic legacy."

The 450,000 square foot advanced ammunition production facility will be capable of manufacturing all components of 6.8mm ammunition as well as finished rounds for the U.S. military, reinforcing the iconic legacy of LCAAP and its vital role in national defense.

https://olin.com/investors/#b2iLibScrollTo

[Sensei]

https://breakingdefense.com/2023/09/...racy-problems/

Apparently, they are correcting fumes and accuracy problems.

The story seems to be that hybrid case ammo is anywhere between 3-6 MOA when using FMJ and at least 1 proposed secret sauce penetrator that all push the projectile to 3000+ fps from the 13” barrel. I suspect the penetrators are on the 6 MOA side presumably due to flight instability from a dual material bullet construction, but nobody knows or is at 🗽 liberty to say anything more than at least 1 penetrator exists (nothing about construction, velocity, etc).

This seems consistent with civilian testing of the hybrid case FMJ ammo. I think GT posted a video with 3-4 MOA accuracy with hybrid case FMJ.

There is conventional-cased match ammo at 2750 fps that produces 1.5-3 MOA.

There is no free lunch or one-shot solution. Either you defeat the latest generation Chinese body armor with a bullet that is minute-of-man out to 300 meters, or you can extend the practical accuracy out to 700 meters with a “match” bullet that is a 6.8 hole puncher through soft tissue but doesn’t have the legs or construction to penetrate armor.

Honestly, I wish the DOGE boys would take a look at this program. They may save a lot more than money by sending it to the scrap heap of bad ideas. Send in “Big Balls”…

[HCM]

The story seems to be that hybrid case ammo is anywhere between 3-6 MOA when using FMJ and at least 1 proposed secret sauce penetrator that all push the projectile to 3000+ fps from the 13” barrel. I suspect the penetrators are on the 6 MOA side presumably due to flight instability from a dual material bullet construction, but nobody knows or is at 🗽 liberty to say anything more than at least 1 penetrator exists (nothing about construction, velocity, etc).

This seems consistent with civilian testing of the hybrid case FMJ ammo. I think GT posted a video with 3-4 MOA accuracy with hybrid case FMJ.

There is conventional-cased match ammo at 2750 fps that produces 1.5-3 MOA.

There is no free lunch or one-shot solution. Either you defeat the latest generation Chinese body armor with a bullet that is minute-of-man out to 300 meters, or you can extend the practical accuracy out to 700 meters with a “match” bullet that is a 6.8 hole puncher through soft tissue but doesn’t have the legs or construction to penetrate armor.

Honestly, I wish the DOGE boys would take a look at this program. They may save a lot more than money by sending it to the scrap heap of bad ideas. Send in “Big Balls”…

I’m not a fan of this program but given the similarities between DOGE and former defense secretary, Robert McNamara‘s WizKids and how the fucked up the DOD during Vietnam the cure may be worse than the disease.

[Wake27]

I’m not a fan of this program but given the similarities between DOGE and former defense secretary, Robert McNamara‘s WizKids and how the fucked up the DOD during Vietnam the cure may be worse than the disease.

The Whiz Kids were trying to solve problems by creating new things like programs whereas DOGE is cutting unnecessary waste. Wildly different intent and execution. DOGE could surely spend a ton of time in the DOD and the mil and country would likely come out better for it, despite my reservations.

[Sensei]

Don’t worry guys. DOGE will be tied up at the Treasury for the next few weeks. So, transvestite story hour is safe for now and we can go back to discussing the rifle.

I’ve yet to hear from an O-5 or below who thinks the concept of a rifle that weighs 1/2 lb more than a SCAR-H, recoils similar to a SCAR-H, carries the same number of rounds as a SCAR-H, and is 1/4 as accurate as a SCAR-H is a great idea.