The role of in person classes in training versus online coaching and self-video.

[45dotACP]

Not necessarily shooting related, but my BJJ skills took a significant jump from self-directed study.

Video and analysis of yourself and ruthless honesty with the realities of your game and a focus on your lowest hanging fruit.

In my BJJ game, I always got crushed on the bottom, so I had to build a better half guard. But then, as parts of my game improved, I keyed in on parts that needed to improve because of my improvement.

My half guard sweeps were better, so next, I needed to improve my guard passing because that's what happens after you sweep from half guard.

None of this was anything my coach told me or taught me. Now, I'm starting to focus heavily on standing skills and specifically the single leg takedown. Again, not anything my coaches told me, but I can recognize that I must improve certain areas because they aren't great, or even all that good.


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[JCN]

Something Rob Leatham has told me, is that while there are significant mental aspects involved, shooting is very physical. As an instructor, he believes it is very important to stand close to you so as to be able to touch you to optimally diagnose and instruct.

I think that’s probably correct and I’m more efficient instructing in person.

If I could have Rob living in my basement able to hop out for 5 minutes here and there I would be a much better shooter than I am now.

It’s just not realistic for my schedule and budget.

If you take the opportunity cost of travel and time into account, longitudinal online coaching might have some distinct benefits over scheduled single bolus in person training. Longitudinal in person training is superior of course, but just not realistic for most.

EDIT: with the one caveat that slow motion video is a great tool for coaching and something I often don’t have time to look at when in person with a student.

So if I had the time to review their videos even in person that would be optimal.

There were things with Jenks trigger press I could only see when I slowed down his videos.

[Mike C]

I’ve taken two formal classes. One from a local trainer. The other from a GM. These were both 5+ years ago. Fast forward to today and they helped me very little. Why? Partially because I didn’t practice consistently. Also because they didn’t teach self analysis. When I look at the high level of online coaching and education now it’s much better than what I received in these classes. At some point a shooter has to start analyzing their own shooting. My biggest gains have come over the past couple years as I’ve learned how to do that.

If I had to choose between the two, I think online coaching is superior to group classes. I recently backed out of a Stoeger class. Not because I think it won’t help but because I think my resources are better spent elsewhere. Class costs, travel and ammo would’ve made it a $1200+ training session plus time off work. If I wanted I could buy several years worth of Max Michels patreon for that or an entire year of PTSG gold membership.

I have been shocked at how many of the up and coming CO gms have reached an elite level with very little to no formal group training.

The secret is not really a secret. It’s lots of time and reps of practice.

This 100%. I take multiple classes a year, from a myriad of instructors including instructor level classes. I never quite felt like I got what I was looking for. Specifically with regards to instructor training assessing and coaching. I would have liked to or would like to see in the future more coverage of self assessment/self analysis covered in courses. It would also be nice to see modeling for skill breakdown and prioritization based on goals and needs. This is something I never quite felt I got. For example JCN has been helping me break down my reloads to speed them up. In just a few short sessions my time was halved. It is frustrating after spending a lot of money and time between, child care, travel, hotel and ammo cost for nothing more than range masterbation. I will say, Gabes class was a breath of fresh air.

Personally I have made more improvements with a 40% effort with JCN, (because that is all I can give at the moment) than I have with years of classes. That isn't because I haven't spent time dry firing or working skills on the range but because of specificity and learning to break skills down. Online and personal coaching based on my specific goals, needs and priorities is key. Being coached on what needs to be tweaked and why, understanding where there is skill over lap in doing specific drills or not has been huge for efficiency. All this while getting the feedback necessary to continue to improve while learning to self assess errors. I was never an online coaching kind of guy but there is a huge benefit to video/critique as well as one on one time to converse. I am a big believer in the online coaching methodology.

[YVK]

But that's just a problem in general. How do you choose between squared away in-person trainers and non-squared-away in-person trainers? I've got about a 1:6 ratio along those lines in my immediate area. (For Twitter misinformation purposes: that's a completely made up statistic.)

Yes, selection is a task. Taking a completely naive shooter with a goal to get real good, I think that the path will be more efficient sorting out bs from worth-it on a basis of personal observation vs watching edited video snippets.

Watching them shoot it becomes pretty clear who I would want.

But sadly Google and YouTube analytics will pop up those others before Stoeger.

Ben has a video where he says, more or less verbatim, that he ignores shooting videos that people make. Folks put highly edited content and everybody looks like a boss; you rarely see people posting their fuckups. I am going to hazard a guess that you are choosing to watch him over others because you know what he's done, not how he looks on videos. I actually think he doesn't look great when he runs.

To the subject of this thread, I do not think that not-in-person training exists at all when talking about higher levels of proficiency. Reflecting on the stuff above, we more or less agree that Ben, or Max, or competitive shooters in general produce the best technical video content. To care about and believe what gamers say, you likely have to have at least some interest in the game. If you attended a match, you attended in-person training. You had an opportunity to watch, live, people do things in a technically correct way, consistently, and with immediate and objective results. That is an in-person training in my book; at least, that's how I learned to do what pays my bills.

[Moylan]

Yes, selection is a task. Taking a completely naive shooter with a goal to get real good, I think that the path will be more efficient sorting out bs from worth-it on a basis of personal observation vs watching edited video snippets.

I feel confused, and I'm not sure if it's me not tracking, or if there's an equivocation going on in the conversation. I was thinking of 'using video' in the context of this thread as meaning 'taking video of yourself shooting (or whatever) and analyzing that yourself, or having an online coach analyze it.' And then I thought we were comparing that mode of non-in-person training to in-person training.

But some of what we're talking now about appears to be us watching videos made by instructors like Stoeger of whoever, and comparing that method of non-in-person learning to in-person learning.

I think it's likely true that watching youtube is not going to be as good as getting solid in-person instruction. But I don't think that fact tells us anything about the merits of video self-analysis or online coaching vs. in-person.

Edit: I deny that this post is more than two paragraphs. It is really only one long paragraph that I have elected to spread out visually for ease of reading.

[Gio]

Honest self critique/assessment is critical to improving on your own. I've found that most people are incapable of this, and therefore need an outside observer to tell them what they are doing wrong and how to fix it.

My path was almost entirely self taught, using video analysis and studying/emulating the movements and mechanics of the top shooters in the world.

I went from buying/owning a pistol for the first time as a young 24 yr old in 2006 to dabbling in competition right after that (without really diving in yet), to getting more serious in IDPA competition and getting my initial classification as expert (2011) and then initial USPSA classification in B class (2013) to USPSA Grandmaster (2017), super squad (2020, 2021, 2022), and multiple top 10 finishes with no formal classes by any instructor.

All that said, I finally took a class with JJ last fall, and he immediately picked up a couple movement related inefficiencies that I was doing that were as close to "low hanging fruit" as I can get at this point.

I do think the balance for me was always: Do I spend $600 on a class with a guy like Rob or Ben or JJ, or do I put that $600 into 7,000 rounds of ammo at my costs to work on the things I know I need to work on already from self analysis?

I personally train and oversee training of a lot of LEO shooters every year, and in my experience, most people cannot self diagnose. If you can't self diagnose, you can shoot 10,000 rounds/year and not move the needle on improvement. There are even people who will adamantly deny they are doing something wrong after I point it out to them, and I have to video them to show them what they're doing before they believe it.

[Mike C]

I feel confused, and I'm not sure if it's me not tracking, or if there's an equivocation going on in the conversation. I was thinking of 'using video' in the context of this thread as meaning 'taking video of yourself shooting (or whatever) and analyzing that yourself, or having an online coach analyze it.' And then I thought we were comparing that mode of non-in-person training to in-person training.

But some of what we're talking now about appears to be us watching videos made by instructors like Stoeger of whoever, and comparing that method of non-in-person learning to in-person learning.

I think it's likely true that watching youtube is not going to be as good as getting solid in-person instruction. But I don't think that fact tells us anything about the merits of video self-analysis or online coaching vs. in-person.

Edit: I deny that this post is more than two paragraphs. It is really only one long paragraph that I have elected to spread out visually for ease of reading.

I think that both conversations have to be had and there is absolute truth to what YVK said about edited content. It is important to know from what and whom you are taking information in and in what context it is applicable to you. Whether you are self analyzing or using an, "online" coach or in person coach it is an important step in getting better. Everything and everyone should be using a vetting process. Whether using in person training or online coaching the previous statement still holds true, who, what and applicable context matters. Having a trained eye for critique is a critical and necessary step but IMHO video is an absolute requirement.

The ability to record and watch things in slow motion frame by frame is incredibly important for everything but to highlight; things like a draw, reload, moving into and out of positions, movement etc. Even with a trained eye and superb vision there are little things that can be gleaned using video that someone standing there just won't see. I think this is true across the board video is not used enough. Both for self assessment and for professional instructor student assessment. It's hard to pack everything into a weekend or coach which is why I think a lot of schooling classes end up being a bunch of shoot this drill and that. I also think that there is an expectation set forth by students for their instructors. The best part about the whole ammo issue is that more explaining is getting done, less ammo wasting and more actual coaching. At least that has been my experience over the last 2 years, (though still not enough coaching).

If I were running my own shooting program I'd be running two firing orders with one filming the other shooting so I could walk the line with AI's and give constant feedback when necessary. With everyone owning a cellphone it would be a piece of cake and the feedback loop would be 100% better. In my personal use case there were so many things going on that I just wasn't aware of until I got talked into filming everything. Having an online source of technical shooters like Max Michel et al is incredible because if you don't have the money you can still film yourself and look to see who is doing what right and compare yourself to those you wish to emulate. It's not hard to find good examples even if you are just starting out. We really are living in the golden age in so many ways to coin DB.

@Gio totally agree. Well put you beat me to it.

[YVK]

I feel confused, and I'm not sure if it's me not tracking, or if there's an equivocation going on in the conversation. I was thinking of 'using video' in the context of this thread as meaning 'taking video of yourself shooting (or whatever) and analyzing that yourself, or having an online coach analyze it.' And then I thought we were comparing that mode of non-in-person training to in-person training.

But some of what we're talking now about appears to be us watching videos made by instructors like Stoeger of whoever, and comparing that method of non-in-person learning to in-person learning.

I think it's likely true that watching youtube is not going to be as good as getting solid in-person instruction. But I don't think that fact tells us anything about the merits of video self-analysis or online coaching vs. in-person.

Edit: I deny that this post is more than two paragraphs. It is really only one long paragraph that I have elected to spread out visually for ease of reading.

I probably didn't pay attention to the discussion well enough, or missed the emphasis. I thought this was a general discussion about in-person training, like getting live instruction, classes, etc vs doing it by other means that don't involve personal attendance of activities that constitute training, direct or de facto.
If the discussion is very specifically about video analysis of own shooting, I do think that it is a useful learning tool but only to a degree. It helps handling the recall bias and shows readily visible mistakes. For me personally it can't show main mistakes that lead to suboptimal performance on my part.
If the discussion is about something else, please correct me. Also I don't know how the smiley face appeared up there.

[JCN]

Honest self critique/assessment is critical to improving on your own.

My path was almost entirely self taught, using video analysis and studying/emulating the movements and mechanics of the top shooters in the world.

I went from buying/owning a pistol for the first time as a young 24 yr old in 2006 to dabbling in competition right after that (without really diving in yet), to getting more serious in IDPA competition and getting my initial classification as expert (2011) and then initial USPSA classification in B class (2013) to USPSA Grandmaster (2017), super squad (2020, 2021, 2022), and multiple top 10 finishes with no formal classes by any instructor.

BUT WHAT ABOUT YOUR LACK OF TRAINING RESUME!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm kidding of course. I'm glad PF has gotten away from that cliche. If someone can do it, they can do it. And if they can't, they can't no matter what their pedigree looks like.

If you'd indulge me, I'm very interested in your journey because it sounds familiar to me....


Did you have historical success in self-analysis endeavors prior to this? Like skateboarding or other competition at a high level?

While these traits may be uncommon in general LEO, they're very common to high level athletes or highly competitive technical students.

[MVS]

Who? Literally (as in actually) never heard of them.

If you don't know, it really isn't worth your time worrying about it. Haven't heard those names in a while. Basically stolen valor and short shorts make it big until someone catches on.