The role of in person classes in training versus online coaching and self-video.

[JCN]

So it's no secret that @vcdgrips and I differ greatly in our opinions on training.

My hypothesis:
Using online resources from experts, self-video analysis and thoughtful and longitudinal practice, someone can get quite competent at handgun and long gun shooting.

Without in-person training.


I think I've proven that it's possible. To take that a step further, online coaching from someone competent at a high level who designs and critiques your specific performance a la SWYNTS is a VERY effective platform for improvement. In a way that people doing traditional classes and in person work don't get in a group setting.


The latest disagreement comes from:

You wont do it in public because on some level you have to know how utterly ridiculous it sounds that you would not be a better shooter for having trained with a world class one.

Only you are so special that you could not be made made better by live training with a world class shooter. (Or anyone frankly by your own prior admission.) No where else in the bodily kinesthetic world is this true at the peaks levels in any sport but you are the ONLY one.

You continue to post patently stupid shit in public, you will be called on in public to the extent that the moderator(s) do not edit or redirect the thread.

As a reply to my

To your comment:

I'd be happy to discuss if you're willing to discuss rather than just stick to your own preconceived hypothesis.

I do not think I would be meaningfully better of a pistol shooter if I had trained in person with Rob or JJ.

If you don't accept my hypothesis then there's no point in discussing further.

I can tell you WHY I believe that and then you can choose to reject my hypothesis, that's fair.

So I think I'm in a special situation but it's a proof of concept. I'm not saying it's the best for everyone, just that it's very possible in the proper situation.

So I'm happy to discuss if you're willing to accept my reply as possible: I wouldn't meaningfully be a better pistol shooter than I am had I spent time training in person with Rob or JJ.

So I'll explain my position. I don't expect @vcdgrips to actually read what I'm writing, but maybe someone else can benefit from it.




1. Most of the gains in shooting comes from practice with good feedback.
2. Most people benefit greatly from external feedback.
3. Introspective students can supplement the external feedback with slow motion video analysis, especially if they have a good basic physics background.
4. Having a gold standard to compare it to is very helpful. That's where online programs and videos come into play.
5. I used videos of gold standard shooters as my model when designing my shooting stance and mechanics.
6. I would be better if I had a world class coach.
7. Spending one hour with a world class coach might have improved my skill by 0.0001% compared to what I'm doing because most of the improvement is in the work.
8. I've had world class coaches for music lessons and without the work, it doesn't go very far. Even on an ongoing coaching basis with hundreds of hours of in person work.

So basically it comes down to putting the work in and having specific coaching available when you hit a plateau is important. With a critical self analysis eye and video, you can sometimes be your own coach. That's a Charlie Perez quote from his book. That being a GM is about being a GM student of yourself.

There it is. Video learning can replace didactic in person learning. And hands on skill training in a class is meaningless without the longitudinal work outside of class.

So would I be better for training with Rob or JJ?

Yes.

Would I be meaningfully better? I don't think by much. YMMV.

As an interesting hypothesis test, I am now at the point where I'm starting to take classes and it'll be interesting to see what additional things I can learn.

But what does "meaningfully" better mean. Will one hour of time with Rob or JJ improve my shooting by 10%? Doubtful at this level. 5%? probably not.

1% maybe? If I could spend an hour and be 1% better I would totally do it.

But realistically at this level I would expect maybe 0.05% improvement or less from 1 hour of coaching.

We shall see! I'm going to test the hypothesis.

[Mark D]

I don't have a dog in the fight, but @JCN I think you're something of an outlier in terms of your ability to self-assess.

[vcdgrips]

JCN

If you are going to quote a Private Message Thread that you started to me don’t cherry pick and set up strawmen like you would only train with someone world class for just one hour. I call BS.



If you going to quote me out of a private message thread that you started to me and I responded back to you privately-Then quote me as I opined:


[JCN] “I wonder how many educational/professional opportunities you have lost out on without you even knowing you were in consideration because the book on you is:

Smart as a whip
Very talented
Works super hard

BUT you cannot TEACH him a thing…just ask him.”

Edited to Add- For the record, training does not have to be a)Video or b) in person or c) self taught. It can in fact be d) all of the above.

[JCN]

I don't have a dog in the fight, but @JCN I think you're something of an outlier in terms of your ability to self-assess.

I totally agree with that (and said as such) and what works for me won’t necessarily work for others.

But the concept of it CAN help. In the SWYNTS thread you can see how forcing people to video their runs has them learning how to critique themselves. You can see people learning how to learn in that thread which is huge.

And that’s why people are noticing big improvement where they had previously plateaued.

[GJM]

Being very smart can be a blessing and a curse.

[JCN]

JCN

If you are going to quote a Private Message Thread that you started to me don’t cherry pick and set up strawmen like you would only train with someone world class for just one hour. I call BS.



If you going to quote me out of a private message thread that you started to me and I responded back to you privately-Then quote me as I opined:


[JCN] “I wonder how many educational/professional opportunities you have lost out on without you even knowing you were in consideration because the book on you is:

Smart as a whip
Very talented
Works super hard

BUT you cannot TEACH him a thing…just ask him.”

That's why I was going to try and explain this to you offline, but you just rabidly foamed at the mouth. Your hypothesis was wrong. I don't mind at all posting this in public and that's the point. I don't think adding that part you added helps the discussion at hand, but happy to address it.


1. Train for an hour.

In a full day class with Rob or JJ, there will be didactic parts (that I can get online from their courses and videos).
There will be group at the line exercises. Those are replaced by video self-analysis.
Then you might, if you're lucky get a total of 1 hour of Rob or JJ intently focused on YOUR performance and giving you SPECIFIC feedback.
Probably less.

Generally speaking if there are 8 people in class and the class is 8 hours.... you'll get less than one hour of 1-on-1 time.

Also keep in mind for me, if I go fly somewhere for a class that's a day I'm not working or a day away from family. So that costs much more.

So realistically, If I trained for a day or weekend with Rob or JJ unless I hire them as a personal 1 on 1 coach, I'm getting less than an hour of their specific time.

If you say that one hour of Rob or JJ time costs me $5000 in lost wages, travel and family time and that one hour improves my skill by 0.05%... is it worth it?

Doing more than 10 hours of that isn't going to be viable and my hypothesis was just spending the time working on my shooting would have more of a benefit.




2. Regarding opportunities lost.... No doubt my personality and preferences caused me to lose out of opportunity.

I'm okay with that because I have a job and family I love, no debt, fat bank account, garage full of Porsches and objective performance in my enjoyable hobbies.

How much more would or should I want?


Same thing with the shooting. In my spare time, I got pretty good at shooting. What additional utility would in person training get me?

[JCN]

Being very smart can be a blessing and a curse.

Definitely a double edged sword.

[vcdgrips]

Mac Davis may have said it best re JCN.

https://youtu.be/0WTrMuZOZvM

[JCN]

Edited to Add- For the record, training does not have to be a)Video or b) in person or c) self taught. It can in fact be d) all of the above.

YES! Absolutely.

Now take the relative benefits of the different phases when done well or done poorly.
If you were going to remove or compromise one, which would you compromise.

Let's break that down into the pinnacle of what it means.

VIDEO: You get the words of wisdom and demonstration from the masters. JJ, Rob, Shannon, Max, Ben. You get their didactic best presentation boiled down into their most succinct and polished verbage.

IN PERSON: You get the VIDEO content live but you only get to watch it once and can't slow it down. You get one perspective but not the chance to assimilate multiple expert opinions. You get a critical eye helping you with gross errors but you might not be able to see or recognize what it is you're doing from first person perspective. Some good classes I hear use cameras and slow motion to help.

This is a good option for people who don't self-assess at a high level. It's a necessary option for most people.

SELF TAUGHT: Pure self taught would be in a vacuum with no input from anyone else. That's not what I did. The improvement part would be self analysis using tools and metrics. Cameras and slow motion and mirrors are useful tools.



So I started with VIDEO and added SELF-TAUGHT to that and skipped IN PERSON because I didn't hit a plateau.

I think that's a viable alternative to someone who does IN PERSON but doesn't learn how to learn and cannot supplement with SELF TAUGHT in between classes.

[JAD]

Being very smart can be a blessing and a curse.

My wife calls it ‘wrapping around the bell curve.” It gets leveled at me sometimes.