Vortex Defender CCW Optic

[stomridertx]

I have a strong wish for Vortex to go hard in the paint on pistol red dots, because I'd love to have their warranty and customer service behind what I'm running. They also seem to get it about offering a 6 MOA dot. However, it looks like whoever is running their red dot division isn't paying attention or doesn't care. This is entering the race at the middle of the pack. I don't know how you do a product comparison and not pick the Holosun EPS over this. The plastic front is not that big an innovation and not a reason to go backwards to an open emitter. How is the company who makes the Razor Gen IIe 1-6 not able to put out the best duty grade pistol red dot?

[Clusterfrack]

I have a strong wish for Vortex to go hard in the paint on pistol red dots, because I'd love to have their warranty and customer service behind what I'm running. They also seem to get it about offering a 6 MOA dot. However, it looks like whoever is running their red dot division isn't paying attention or doesn't care. This is entering the race at the middle of the pack. I don't know how you do a product comparison and not pick the Holosun EPS over this. The plastic front is not that big an innovation and not a reason to go backwards to an open emitter. How is the company who makes the Razor Gen IIe 1-6 not able to put out the best duty grade pistol red dot?

I may just be grumpy, but here's my take. I'm not sure this even reaches the middle.

There is a proliferation of flimsy open-emitter optics that are basically a Burris Fastfire. What's new about these offerings? Brand name, and superficial external detailing.

Given that 1) RDS are the "New Hotness" for handguns, and 2) 99% of customers have no clue about what makes an optic functional and durable, why wouldn't well-known brands shortcut R&D and slap their name on a $100 RDS and charge $250? As well, why wouldn't completely unknown brands like CHWPS contract with a Chinese factory for one of their knockoff clone optics?

I really shouldn't complain. This is just market forces driving product design, and 5 years from now there will be as many brands of RDS as there are for folding knives. Some will be like Spyderco and Benchmade. Others will be like what you buy on the counter at 7-11.

[stomridertx]

I think Holosun's focus on only LED emitter optics and lasers is more of an advantage for them that we realized. This is highlighted by their real competition, Aimpoint, another company that focuses on red dots. The only places Holosun beats Aimpoint are price, variety of optic bodies, and reticle selection. If there was a 6 MOA dot Acro P2, I'd have a really hard time choosing because Aimpoint's manufacturing location and reputation are very powerful considerations. Trijicon, Vortex, etc are destined to fall behind because they also have to keep up with their traditional optic lines and have to devote R&D to all of them. Holosun's R&D and engineering are just moving faster than everyone else. I'm not sure if it's because they started from a place of copying Aimpoint, or if their existing presence in LED emitters in other industries gave them a head start of epic proportions.
Here's what's interesting, the only company that Huanic makes Red Dots for other than Holosun is Sig. I wonder if Sig wrote a big enough check that other competitors are locked out from using Huanic as an OEM. So other optics companies either have to catch up on emitter technology on their own, or be satisfied with being in a lower tier. Aimpoint has the focus to outdo Holosun, they just need to do it.

[HCM]

I think Holosun's focus on only LED emitter optics and lasers is more of an advantage for them that we realized. This is highlighted by their real competition, Aimpoint, another company that focuses on red dots. The only places Holosun beats Aimpoint are price, variety of optic bodies, and reticle selection. If there was a 6 MOA dot Acro P2, I'd have a really hard time choosing because Aimpoint's manufacturing location and reputation are very powerful considerations. Trijicon, Vortex, etc are destined to fall behind because they also have to keep up with their traditional optic lines and have to devote R&D to all of them. Holosun's R&D and engineering are just moving faster than everyone else. I'm not sure if it's because they started from a place of copying Aimpoint, or if their existing presence in LED emitters in other industries gave them a head start of epic proportions.
Here's what's interesting, the only company that Huanic makes Red Dots for other than Holosun is Sig. I wonder if Sig wrote a big enough check that other competitors are locked out from using Huanic as an OEM. So other optics companies either have to catch up on emitter technology on their own, or be satisfied with being in a lower tier. Aimpoint has the focus to outdo Holosun, they just need to do it.

Just because the only company you are aware of Husnic making optics or components for is SIG does mean that’s the case..

Aimpoint, like many Euro weapons and weapons related companies sees institutions as its “real customers.” Commercial sales are their scraps. Write a big enough order and AP will make a 6 MOA P-2.

There’s a lot of American shooters who think we are the center of the universe. A perfect example is recent on availability of both the P2 and the T2 Carbine optic. There have been all sorts of b******t conspiracy theories when Aimpoint has simply prioritized fulfilling, P-2 and T2 for international institutional customers.

The Euro gun industry culture is one factor - another is Aimpoint is a Swedish company, not an American company. Their idea of “out doing Holosun” may not be your idea of out doing Holosun.

[LittleLebowski]

Just because the only company you are aware of Husnic making optics or components for is SIG does mean that’s the case..

Aimpoint, like many Euro weapons and weapons related companies sees institutions as its “real customers.” Commercial sales are their scraps. Write a big enough order and AP will make a 6 MOA P-2.

There’s a lot of American shooters who think we are the center of the universe. A perfect example is recent on availability of both the P2 and the T2 Carbine optic. There have been all sorts of b******t conspiracy theories when Aimpoint has simply prioritized fulfilling, P-2 and T2 for international institutional customers.

The Euro gun industry culture is one factor - another is Aimpoint is a Swedish company, not an American company. Their idea of “out doing Holosun” may not be your idea of out doing Holosun.

It's very hard to describe certain Euro-ways of doing things.

[HCM]

I may just be grumpy, but here's my take. I'm not sure this even reaches the middle.

There is a proliferation of flimsy open-emitter optics that are basically a Burris Fastfire. What's new about these offerings? Brand name, and superficial external detailing.

Given that 1) RDS are the "New Hotness" for handguns, and 2) 99% of customers have no clue about what makes an optic functional and durable, why wouldn't well-known brands shortcut R&D and slap their name on a $100 RDS and charge $250? As well, why wouldn't completely unknown brands like CHWPS contract with a Chinese factory for one of their knockoff clone optics?

I really shouldn't complain. This is just market forces driving product design, and 5 years from now there will be as many brands of RDS as there are for folding knives. Some will be like Spyderco and Benchmade. Others will be like what you buy on the counter at 7-11.

Can’t say what this thing is on the inside, but

1) externally it’s not a fast fire / RMS what ever clone. The taller window and top load battery alone set it apart.

2) it’s not flimsy, it’s got a thick aluminum body. While that may be a negative re target focus shooting this thing is definitely made to survive drop and crush.

[HCM]

It's very hard to describe certain Euro-ways of doing things.

Agreed but it’s a thing.

[stomridertx]

Just because the only company you are aware of Husnic making optics or components for is SIG does mean that’s the case..

Aimpoint, like many Euro weapons and weapons related companies sees institutions as its “real customers.” Commercial sales are their scraps. Write a big enough order and AP will make a 6 MOA P-2.

There’s a lot of American shooters who think we are the center of the universe. A perfect example is recent on availability of both the P2 and the T2 Carbine optic. There have been all sorts of b******t conspiracy theories when Aimpoint has simply prioritized fulfilling, P-2 and T2 for international institutional customers.

The Euro gun industry culture is one factor - another is Aimpoint is a Swedish company, not an American company. Their idea of “out doing Holosun” may not be your idea of out doing Holosun.

Vortex uses Galaxier.
Swampfox is Shanghai Changhong Optoelectric.
Athlon uses Superior Lens.
Burris uses Scopro (Phillipines).
Bushnell uses Galxier and Superior Lens.
Crimson Trace uses Superior Lens, Nantong Chengxin Optical, and Tokyo Scope
Hawke uses Billings Optics.
Riton uses Shanghai Changhong Optoelectric.
Primary arms has partnered with Holosun with ACSS reticles in Holosun branded optics, but their brand doesn't share the same DNA. Their prism scopes are made by Galaxier.

Mike from Swampfox has openly said that Holosun won't sell their emitters.

Your point about Euro culture is a good one and Aimpoint probably doesn't see the current American landscape as a problem they need to solve.

Trijicon and Aimpoint can cater to whomever they want on their past reputation and what they believe is the best configuration for institutional users. They better not bitch when Holosun suprises them by snagging some of those contracts by designing around what American shooters want.

[CCT125US]

@stomridertx

I see Swampfox and Riton use Shanghai Changhong Optoelectric. Would you happen to know which parts? I ask because I have used both, and there is a distinct quality difference, at least in my small sample set.

[stomridertx]

@stomridertx

I see Swampfox and Riton use Shanghai Changhong Optoelectric. Would you happen to know which parts? I ask because I have used both, and there is a distinct quality difference, at least in my small sample set.

I don't, that's as much info as I've been able to dig up. I do know Chinese OEMs will put out whatever quality someone is willing to pay them for. None of the list is to imply that they are inferior quality, it's more that Holosun is WAY different and have options no other company has (besides SIG). It's fascinating to me that Vortex isn't doing a full court press to take back the category they created. It also may seem to come across like I'm a Holosun fanboy, but I will run whatever option is best for my needs no matter who makes it. I'd really like that to be Vortex instead of Holosun, to bring the thread back on track discussing Vortex's new optic.