How do you reconcile 5pins' testing, that shows the 147+P Underwood hard cast load penetrating on the order of 2X the Lehigh penetrator bullets? My recollection is this goes for pretty much every caliber.Originally Posted by Clusterfrack
How do you reconcile 5pins' testing, that shows the 147+P Underwood hard cast load penetrating on the order of 2X the Lehigh penetrator bullets? My recollection is this goes for pretty much every caliber.
Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.
Small sample, but I shot twenty rounds of the Underwood 147+P through this Macro like 365 this afternoon. No stoppages. It was quite windy, but POI seemed a bit left, of my Gold Dot zero, although not so far that it would cause me concern. This is freestyle at 20 yards.
Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.
I believe it. Heavy bullets typically penetrate better.
However, for this application penetration depth isn't the main requirement. A grizzly head shot requires:
1) Doesn't deflect on impact to skull
2) Penetrates skull
3) Reaches brain
What would you estimate the max penetration depth required for that would be? Maybe 16-24"?
“There is no growth in the comfort zone.”--Jocko Willink
"You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
Hard cast bullets at modest velocities have been killing lots of big stuff for more than a century. Last I heard, no single Garrett bullet had been recovered from a Cape buffalo, meaning all completely penetrated and exited. When my wife I put a hurting on a grizzly with .45-70 lever guns, every bullet exited. I once shot a mule deer up the butt with a Garrett bullet in .44, and it traveled the length of the deer and exited.
As to whether the Lehigh will reach the brain, I don't know. What I do know, given how underpowered service pistols are, if I have something that penetrates twice as far, AND is reliable, that is a no brainer for me.
Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.
If i was stuck with 9mm I'd carry the underwood or buffalo bore 147gr load
On the ragged edge of the world I'll roam,
And the home of the wolf shall be my home - Robert Service
If I may play devil's advocate for a moment:
Background, this is from the perspective of a past president of the local Wildlife Society chapter, who has managed biologists for 35 years, and who frequently hikes in the backcountry in a region where (black) bear are fairly abundant. While my areas of expertise do not really include anatomy at more than a basic level, I probably know more about wildlife than I do about pistols.
The nearest brown bear skull to where I'm sitting is at my favorite coffee place on Main Street, the owner spends lots of time in the Aleutians and brought back this skull-as-artwork, created by a native as indicated on the sign. Probably the prettiest and most creative grizzly skull I've seen. In any case I grabbed a tape measure and ran the six blocks over there to take this very quick photo while several patrons watched with extreme curiosity:
So, first question/comment, while I agree that more penetration may be a good thing with a charging bear, do I really need 64 inches of penetration to reach the brain inside a 10-inch long skull? Less than that for the comparatively puny black bears where I usually hike? When 5pins testing got 47 inches in bare gel and 16.5 inches through steel into gel with Underwood 115gr XP?
Next comment: California mandates non-lead for hunting. The regs are ambiguous for self defense, so last year I took advantage of my TWS and work connections and talked it over with a couple of CDFW game wardens who I interact with professionally on a frequent basis. The consensus was that they agree the regs aren't clear, thus it's up to each individual warden, thus their recommendation was carry non-lead to minimize hassle.
That's perhaps more important here than in much of the state, because we're near a recent condor release area. Enforcement might be more likely, but for me it's really more about respect for the tribes running that release program. Not only are they friends, but they offer free non-lead ammo informational opportunities at TWS and other local events, including exchange programs when they have grant funding, a box of non-lead for a box of lead.
So, my personal choice is to carry non-lead in the backcountry. Depending on the situation that's one of the following things: 9mm XP in a USP Compact; handloaded 45 Super behind Cutting Edge Solids projectiles, which delivered something like 23.5 inches of penetration in 5pins testing, loaded in my USP FS 45; one of several 357 Magnum non-lead choices (140gr XP, 140gr Barnes XPB HP, or the now available factory loaded 140gr Cutting Edge solid) in a 3-inch revolver; or, HP or solid 45 Colt loads in a 625 Mountain Gun.
I'm pretty much set on those options for now, I'm done chasing the flavor of the month. Later there will probably be a shift to something with a RDS but that's going to be a slow and deliberate process and with one of the existing ammo options.
ETA: A consideration for those running Glocks in the increasing number of capacity restricted states, whatever you decide to try if it's in Glock 10-round mags test it first. My last G19 (gen 2) ran fine with standard capacity mags but choked on anything HP or large flat meplat in the 10 round mags. That would be a very bad thing to learn when that bear charges.
Last edited by Salamander; 02-14-2023 at 08:03 PM.
Not sure if is correlated, but states with grizzly bears tend to have less restrictive firearms laws. There is probably enough lead in my Brenneke shotgun load out, that California would consider me a Superfund site.
Frankly, I am carrying JHP unless there are grizzly bears around.
Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.
@Salamander, the idea that using a lead bullet in a life saving event could be a problem is truly absurd. Sorry you have to deal with that.
“There is no growth in the comfort zone.”--Jocko Willink
"You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
Yep. If I get kilt in the woodz blame the State of California. At least the winters are mild....
One thing that gets glossed over when you start focusing on one target: there is a lot more inches of bear behind and adjacent to the skull, besides whatever it takes to break the brain pan. Personally, if my shots miss the head, or all I have is a body shot, I want as much penetration as I can get.
A solid copper bullet interests me. I've been eyeballing some of the Cutting Edge .357 bullets myself, but I'm not spending much time in grizzly country, and those copper solids get spendy fast, when it's really and edge use case for me. I am far more likely to bump into a cougar, or maybe a black bear in my areas.
Solid copper makes less sense in a 9x19 case, as they eat up so much of the case capacity and drive pressures up. I'm not sure you can get much more than a 125ish solid copper up to reasonable speeds in a 9x19 without 9mm Major pressures. The sharp edges, and lack of much deformation eppeal to me. If they made a thick copper jacketed bullet with a locked in lead core to boost sectional density up, I'd be all over it. But such a thing would likely cost significantly more than plain lead or the solid copper designs.
Full circle: You can shoot more Underwood or Lost River 9mm hardcasts for your dollar, versus the solid copper stuff. @GJM 's point still stands. You are probably looking at a 90% solution for your everyday Joe who wanders into the woods bowhunting Montana, or backpacking Yellowstone, and he's probably already got a plastic 9mm people popper he's familiar with, and can afford a 100rds of new 9mm, a lot more than he can afford a new Glock 20, or a big bore Smith he probably won't shoot enough to be proficient with.
I will be honest, my Glock 19's have long been my "Mountain Guns"... They are not nearly as sexy as a .44 or .45 with a round butt and a pencil barrel, but I feel confident I can make due with my ugly duckling, if needs be.
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