Anybody heard anything about new MR88s from Beretta?

[jetfire]

A MR73, on the other hand, is a significantly superior revolver, and I think well worth its tariff for those appreciating its features and quality of construction, fit and finish.

Until it breaks at 1300 rounds because the design of the cylinder stop spring is hot garbage and the French just tell you that "you're shooting it too fast"

[JonInWA]

Until it breaks at 1300 rounds because the design of the cylinder stop spring is hot garbage and the French just tell you that "you're shooting it too fast"

Caleb, you think that was a cost-cutting mod done for current production? I doesn't sound like GIGN has had that problem on their issue MR73s, but on the other hand, they also had organic unit dedicated armorers, and may have been proactively replacing ...

I'm really hoping Michael Zeleny chimes in. I'll give him a poke.

Best, Jon

[jetfire]

Caleb, you think that was a cost-cutting mod done for current production? I doesn't sound like GIGN has had that problem on their issue MR73s, but on the other hand, they also had organic unit dedicated armorers, and may have been proactively replacing ...

From actual conversation with the engineers at Manurhin, the spring that lifts the cylinder stop has always been that design. The GIGN firing schedule wasn't particularly stressful on that spring because they were never really trying to shoot the gun for fast splits, really never anything faster than half-second splits. Meanwhile on my gun I was starting to get sub 0.20 when I was really on it, and I was getting thousands of dry fire reps on that wee little spring at that pace trying to shoot a sub 2.00 Bill Drill.

It's not something I'd consider a design flaw, since only people at the really really high end of shooting skill are going to be in danger of ever running into it.

But it's also an example of why these days when someone says "but GIGN" I roll my eyes, because GIGN shot like what, 4 people with revolvers? In their revolver heyday, LAPD and LASD were shooting that many people every two weeks with wheel guns, so if I want to know what and how the gunfighters trained, I'll look at TTPs from west coast law enforcement agencies in the 70s and 80s.

[JonInWA]

I've got a sneaking suspicion that GIGN trained a tad bit more than your average LAPD officer. So gun training as well as actual gun shootings might be relevant analytical criteria.

As I recall, LAPD/LASD were pretty heavily Smith & Wesson departments back in the day, although officers (particularly LAPD) might have been given some choices and model selection latitude as I believe their duty weapons were individual purchase items from an approved semi-in-house vendor (Los Angeles Police Athletic).

I'd be more inclined to have more faith in a Ruger Security/Service/Speed Six than a S&W Model 19, 65, 66, and in a GP100 than 586 or 686. The Border Patrol testing in 1984 covering the Ruger Security and Speed Six versus the Smith & Wesson 65-3 massively substantiates the durability and reliability of the Rugers over the Smith & Wessons; the Rugers not only all excelled in the 10,000 round test regimen, but the tested weapons met the criteria for new weapons at the conclusion of the testing of each gun. The Smith and Wessons failed the accuracy requirements, required special parts/parts fittings, encountered operational problems during the testing, had cracked forcing cones, excessive headspacing, and in fact the testing of the Smith & Wesson revolvers was halted at the 2,000 round mark due to safety concerns of the revolvers.

Best, Jon

[jetfire]

I've got a sneaking suspicion that GIGN trained a tad bit more than your average LAPD officer. So gun training as well as actual gun shootings might be relevant analytical criteria.

As I recall, LAPD/LASD were pretty heavily Smith & Wesson departments back in the day, although officers (particularly LAPD) might have been given some choices and model selection latitude as I believe their duty weapons were individual purchase items from an approved semi-in-house vendor (Los Angeles Police Athletic).

I'd be more inclined to have more faith in a Ruger Security/Service/Speed Six than a S&W Model 19, 65, 66, and in a GP100 than 586 or 686. The Border Patrol testing in 1984 covering the Ruger Security and Speed Six versus the Smith & Wesson 65-3 massively substantiates the durability and reliability of the Rugers over the Smith & Wessons; the Rugers not only all excelled in the 10,000 round test regimen, but the tested weapons met the criteria for new weapons at the conclusion of the testing of each gun. The Smith and Wessons failed the accuracy requirements, required special parts/parts fittings, encountered operational problems during the testing, had cracked forcing cones, excessive headspacing, and in fact the testing of the Smith & Wesson revolvers was halted at the 2,000 round mark due to safety concerns of the revolvers.

Best, Jon

Oh for sure, I'd much much rather run a Ruger of any era harder than a S&W of the equivalent era. Absolute tanks; but that being said I shot one of those out of time too.

Re the guns of LAPD and LASD, back then new graduates were issued adjustable sight 357 Magnum K-frames, but were allowed to carry whatever revolver they wished on duty so long as it was a 357 Magnum with a barrel no longer than six inches.

[zeleny]

No, GIGN never trained for fast splits. Their stated goal was to (re)evaluate the threat before each shot, resulting in splits no faster than 3⁄10 of a second. On the other hand, the goals they set and achieved in practice were equally alien to American law enforcement, e.g. shooting guns out of perps’ hands.

[jetfire]

No, GIGN never trained for fast splits. Their stated goal was to (re)evaluate the threat before each shot, resulting in splits no faster than 3⁄10 of a second. On the other hand, the goals they set and achieved in practice were equally alien to American law enforcement, e.g. shooting guns out of perps’ hands.

Citation needed for that one.

[zeleny]

Citation needed for that one.

As recounted by GIGN and replicated by Belmondo in Le Marginal:

http://www.gign.org/groupe-intervention/?p=805

[jetfire]

As recounted by GIGN and replicated by Belmondo in Le Marginal:

http://www.gign.org/groupe-intervention/?p=805

That is a single, unverified note on an unofficial website. Hardly what a rational person would consider an authoritative or unbiased source.

[TheNewbie]

Oh for sure, I'd much much rather run a Ruger of any era harder than a S&W of the equivalent era. Absolute tanks; but that being said I shot one of those out of time too.

Re the guns of LAPD and LASD, back then new graduates were issued adjustable sight 357 Magnum K-frames, but were allowed to carry whatever revolver they wished on duty so long as it was a 357 Magnum with a barrel no longer than six inches.

What Ruger did you shoot out of time? Was the round count significant or did it break early?


Would a S&W shot with 38s hold up to substantially higher round counts than a .357? CHP had the model 68 I think, in part, for that reason.


I’m not sure about LASD, but I’m pretty sure LAPD went from model 14s to model 15s/67s before going to the B92. 1911s were part of the SWAT world for a long time.