Sucker Punch with a Gun! RE: Vehicles - Pannone

[Magsz]

Would he listen to me about explosive breaching?

I can't say that I can speak for him but I would imagine he would. Right up until you prove that you have zero experience with the topic at hand.

[HCM]

I will never get those 16 minutes back. This guy has no frickin clue what he is talking about. Hello, Captain Obvious, no one WANTS to fight from the front seat of a vehicle, duh. Plenty of cops have survived being ambushed in vehicles and knowing how to safely shoot back from within the vehicle without shooting yourself is actually pretty important. I actually know a guy who was sitting with his partner, going to the bank, when a 211 bank suspect walked out after robbing the bank, made Billy and his partner, and 'ol Billy used his Dick Special and 158 grain RNL to shoot through the windshield and end recidivism, permanently. Ever have a crash at the end of a pursuit/PIT where you wind up door to door with the badguy? Nah, that stuff never happens. Ever get stuck in traffic on a freeway because the paid demonstrators of the week decide to block the freeway and assault folks that look a certain way? That happened with disturbing regularity a few years ago here in the SF Bay Area and most metro areas in CA. Tell me how you are going to get out of your vehicle and hot foot it, leaving your wife and kid in the car. Unless you're in the #1 or slow lane, you can't drive out.

I had a guy I trained in FTO and then ran through our vehicle tactics class that was working Gang Task force a few years later.in an unmarked when a local parolee decided to walk around with an AK and relieve the citizenry of their belongings. The parolee was walking up to cars stopped at a light, from a perpendicular alley. My guy was able to release his seatbelt, draw, rotate in the passenger seat and throw a muzzle on Mr. Parolee before he made the two-man unit. Mr. Parolee lived to go back to prison.

Saying you're screwed and there is nothing you can do is more than stupid, it's irresponsible. Especially for a trainer.

This guy sets up his own strawman and then provides a drill that "proves" his point. Maybe if he had EVER performed a traffic stop he would know that sitting in the driver's seat and running someone is not what we teach, even with one man units.

There are worthwhile things in VCQB - mostly things for after (if) you make it out of the car.

However, shooting someone from inside a car and being ambushed while inside a car are two different things.

Pannone is an SME on working from soft skinned vehicles in conditions with high risk of competent or at least semi competent ambush. Some of his experience is relevant and some isn’t. The part about being targeted while in a soft skin vehicle is.

None of this stuff is new. A fair amount of what both Mike P and the VCQB people are teaching were covered in the Scott Reitz vehicle tactics class I took nearly 20 years ago.

[HCM]

I need to re-watch the video, I saw it a while back (when it first came out?), but I don't have enough recall to be conversant on it. As with a few things, people can differ - especially if their experiences give them a different view.

As for whether or not one can successfully respond or react to an ambush, I'll offer an article from Reitz about one such success.

Damnit, I can't upload it as it is too large at 1.4 Mb. If you want it, PM me an email address, and I'll share it. It's from an '03 AmericanHandgunner annual edition so I doubt it is online anywhere.

There is at least one other video out there that addresses the times involved with different responses - to ambush stimulus - while seated in the driver's seat of a car - driving off, bailing out & moving, drawing & shooting, etc. Throw Practically Tactical Ambush at YouTube's search bar, and you'll find it.

Caveat: while I have taken some vehicle-centric courses, I have not taken any training from Mr. Pannone.

You’re talking about the “Toonerville” ambush - Scott Reitz briefed it in the Vehicle tactics class I referenced above.

@Mas might know where to access his write up of the incident.

Here’s a link to an LA Times article about it. Keep in mind this incident occurred in 2000, before the GWOT when information on ambush tactics were less widespread and sometimes it’s better to be lucky than good.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-...h19-story.html

[Erick Gelhaus]

You’re talking about the “Toonerville” ambush - Scott Reitz briefed it in the Vehicle tactics class I referenced above.

@Mas might know where to access his write up of the incident.

Here’s a link to an LA Times article about it. Keep in mind this incident occurred in 2000, before the GWOT when information on ambush tactics were less widespread and sometimes it’s better to be lucky than good.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-...h19-story.html

Different ambush but thanks for telling me what I'm talking about

The one I referenced involved a BadGuy and two Metro coppers.

Regardless, lucky or good, success is still a success. Back then we had larger cars, fewer MDCs, etc.

[Redhat]

Maybe I missed something, only watched it one time, but my take is he was only talking about his views on attempting to counter an ambush by staying inside the vehicle. It seemed to me he was discussing a fairly narrow scenario.

[HCM]

Different ambush but thanks for telling me what I'm talking about

The one I referenced involved a BadGuy and two Metro coppers.

Regardless, lucky or good, success is still a success. Back then we had larger cars, fewer MDCs, etc.

The guy with the 4” Colt King Cobra ? I’m familiar. That one was briefed too and Mas did AH write ups on both incidents.

Sliding across the front of a crown Vic or Caprice to exit opposite side and trying the same in an Explorer with MDT are two completely different levels of difficulty.

[HCM]

Maybe I missed something, only watched it one time, but my take is he was only talking about his views on attempting to counter an ambush by staying inside the vehicle. It seemed to me he was discussing a fairly narrow scenario.

I don’t think either “side” advocates staying in an immobile vehicle. Rather I believe the debate is more over the idea of “fighting your way out of the vehicle” vs simply getting out as quickly as you can and the likely hood of surviving first contact to even have the opportunity to do either.

[paherne]

There are worthwhile things in VCQB - mostly things for after (if) you make it out of the car.

However, shooting someone from inside a car and being ambushed while inside a car are two different things.

Pannone is an SME on working from soft skinned vehicles in conditions with high risk of competent or at least semi competent ambush. Some of his experience is relevant and some isn’t. The part about being targeted while in a soft skin vehicle is.

None of this stuff is new. A fair amount of what both Mike P and the VCQB people are teaching were covered in the Scott Reitz vehicle tactics class I took nearly 20 years ago.

I took multiple ITTS Scott Reitz classes with vehicle components, starting in 2001. It's what started my training journey. I've also taken classes from other trainers AND given my guys time and ammo to go attend Pannone's classes on red dots and other subjects. They enjoyed the classes and recommended him as a trainer. Trainers can be exquisitely talented at many things and completely miss the boat on others.

[AMC]

I've taken Vehicle tactics course that included elements that Pannone criticizes here. Specifically the "Gunfight through the windshield" counter ambush concept. I found other aspects of the training interesting and relevent...just not that so much. I've heard Mike talk about this subject in great depth on different occasions. He is specifically talking about 'training' to counter an ambush by fighting from the front seat. That's the particular issue he has. That nothing about that training is actually gonna help, because it isn't repeatable. He isn't talking about traffic stop tactics, or anything else in this particular discussion. He has discussed a few instances of cops rolling up to the end of the pursuit and immediately taking fire from the bad guys. Guys who prevailed generally got out of the car. He doesn't advocate giving up....he'll say "If you're still alive, you keep fighting and move. Sometimes you're stuck and have to fight from the front seat. But it's a shit sandwich you should avoid."
His two partners are a couple of very experienced street cops, who he runs things by. Their Vehicle tactics courses are similar to those run by others, but different in important ways. Mostly in WHAT they choose to spend time on. He just thinks this isn't something to spend precious time and ammo on. I've come to agree about the specific context we're discussing here.

I was only shot at while in a car once, years ago. It was pretty common at that location back in the day (the old OC Projects for those in the know), and a couple of our patrol cars had bullet holes in the doors. Fortunately, I was driving at the time. Discovered a level of multitasking I hadn't managed till that moment. Flipping off headlights, putting it out on the radio, and flooring it and hitting a hard left towards the building but out of the shooters field of fire all simultaneously. Scared the holy bejeezus out of me. First time some fucker had shot at me.

[LJP]

Caveat: I am a cake eating civilian. With that out of the way, I’ve taken vehicle classes from both Noner and Will Petty. They both bring good things to the table. I don’t necessarily see their respective approaches as being counter to one another, and I’ve learned a lot from both. I don’t want to have to fight from the driver’s seat of my car, but shit happens. And I also realize that cover is not infinite in terms of either time or space. But, if the vehicle is all that’s available, I’ll use it. I have in the past had to contemplate using an ambulance for cover, for real. A lot of shit went wrong on that one, but that’s a long story. But again, I’m just a cake eating civvy and the likelihood of me having to fight from or around my vehicle is somewhere near zero. But if the day ever comes, I’m going to use the cumulative knowledge I’ve gained training with both.