Look at GJM's and Barryl Bolke's writings on the HK USP LEM, particularly the Match Hybrid / LEM.
My favorite is the Match Hybrid / LEM in a full size USP. The P30/ P2000 series with LEM are good but not a nice as the USP Match Hybrid / LEM.
YMMV
Look at GJM's and Barryl Bolke's writings on the HK USP LEM, particularly the Match Hybrid / LEM.
My favorite is the Match Hybrid / LEM in a full size USP. The P30/ P2000 series with LEM are good but not a nice as the USP Match Hybrid / LEM.
YMMV
Do you currently own a DA/SA pistol?Originally Posted by Wooosh
Back in the day, literally thousands of LEO's transitioned from their DA revolvers to DA/SA pistols. If they can do it you ought to be able to, if that it your desire.
First you need to remember that the DA shot is the money shot. The is, ideally the first DA shot stops the gunfight, so don't neglect it. You want to make sure you have a smooth steady press through with no staging or hesitation once you've decided to shoot.
Obviously, the DA to SA transition for the second shot gives the majority of folks the most trouble. We used to intro the transition via dryfire. Dependent on pistol type, you dryfire the DA stroke, pin the trigger to the rear, and either thumb cock the hammer or cycle the slide. We taught maintaining contact with the trigger so you would release the trigger forward only until the action reset - usually an audible or tactile click - then press until the dry shot breaks. Then repeat.
After sufficient dryfire we would start with ball and dummy drills. Load the mag alternating dummy, live, dummy, live, ending with a live round on top. Load the pistol and decock. We conducted this drill from the holster. On the buzzer draw and fire the DA shot, reset the trigger and press the SA shot. Check for movement. We then had the shooter, tap, rack/roll, leave finger off trigger, decock and recover to the holster. Repeat. Our goal at the beginning was under 2.0 for the first shot. Keep in mind these were actually the first shots fired by many of the student officers.
Next work three shots from the holster, the first two being live, the third the dummy. Again, eval movement on the third (dry) shot. Repeat as before.
Then you want to work reaquiring the trigger and firing the pistol cocked in SA as if you had fired your initial rounds, assessed and determined more rounds were needed.
Above all, work that DA stroke, as I said it's the money shot.
You will probably find that as you become more practiced you are actually coming off the trigger a little on your resets, I know I do, but I still feel the best way to intro the average shooter is by initially teaching the 'pin, reset' method. I know othersw disagree, that is JMO.
ETA: I like the SIG DAK just fine, but for my money the absolute best DAO pistol I've ever shot was my wife's agency issue Beretta 92. She should have bought it when she left them to marry me, although I'm a better catch than any pistol.
Adding nothing to the conversation since 2015....
Have you had any training on DA/SA shooting?
The hype regarding the DA to SA transition is just that. Hype.
1) Stop thinking of it as “two trigger pulls.” The trigger breaks in the same place whether DA or SA. As such it’s one trigger pull.
2) Are you riding / trying to shoot to trigger reset rather than getting off the trigger and prepping the trigger ? Trigger prep is a more efficient and effective way to run a trigger, whether by letting it all the way out while maintaining contact or doing the “Flip and press” where the finger comes off the trigger and flies back on to prep the next shot.
A good place to start is Ernest Langdon’s “fear not the double action shot” videos:
Good information contained within this thread. I look shooting a firearm, in this case a pistol, as a set of sub-systems that must work together for the desired outcome.
Caliber selection is important. Granny probably wouldn't shoot a 44 magnum well. Shoot a caliber that works well for the shooter. Sights are important. When I bought my Glock 21, I replaced the stock sights with AmeriGlo Hackathorn sights. Black rear sight and a tritium surrounded by the orange doughnut front sight. Greatly aids in sight acquisition. Also, a pistol with a grip that suits the hands of the shooter. Not too large, or small, but just right. Grip texture also aids anchoring the pistol in the hand.
Now to trigger pull. For carry I prefer a hammer fired pistol. So far all these pistols are traditional DA/SA systems. But I look out for DAO pistols as well as LEM actions. I too am trying to settle on a DAO platform. A friend of mine has a Beretta 92 that he converted to DOA and it shoots great. At the moment, I am leaning towards a LEM P2000 as I already have the DA/SA version of the P2000. Not in any hurry, but still looking.
Once again, thanks for all the opinions/observations in this thread!!
I agree the two trigger press thing is really not a thing and is easily trained around. But I also think it is an unnecessary complication. In addition it introduces decocking which is also a training issue, but is also another complication.
For sure DA/SA allows one to split faster.
Fact is that with how little I train currently my splits are around .25-.30
on any platform. Which incidentally seems to
be my assessment speed. And is also a speed i
can easily run a DAO gun at.
If I want to split faster I’ll use a Glock and train harder, but for day to day or a pistol I could hand to a beginner with no worries, the DAO Beretta is hard to beat.
I have dumped all the DA/SA platforms except a couple B92 “collectors”
I would say the P2000, P2000SK, P30SK, and USP Compact (all in LEM, usually in V1, V2, or V7 variants) are probably the most realistic current production compact guns with some form of a DAO trigger. LEM is not a true DAO but, it sort of mimics it. It's a love it or hate it trigger system for a lot of people, though, so I'd see if you can try one out locally first. One thing to watch out for, though, is a few of the models like the P2K and USP Compact did briefly come in a true DAO variant. I might be off but, I believe this was around the end of the 90's to the early 2000's, possibly mid 2000's. That true DAO is not the one you want as it's a heavier trigger that isn't great. If you buy something recent production or new, you'll be fine. I'd just pay more attention if you find something used, much older production, and getting close to ~20y/o. If browsing used guns, take note of the date codes on the frame or slide to figure out production year.
The Px4 series are also decent. I believe the Type-D (DAO) variant only came in the Full Size. However, the Compact or Compact Carry can be converted to DAO by removing several components, similar to how you would on a 90-series. Doing this conversion may be more work than you want but, I bring it up since LTT offers tuned Px4's as well as red dot mounting options. If you don't mind the full size, you can occasionally find the Type-D model (visible by no safety levers on the slide) on Gunbroker. They're a bit tough to find but, I usually see a few listed there every other month.
If you don't mind an out of production option that's still plentiful, the P250 still has a lot of attractive qualities. Obviously the numerous sizes and frame options are one of the nice features. The trigger might be heavier than some like if they're used to a light SA or striker pull of ~5.5# or less. Anyone with any real time on a revolver shouldn't have an issue with them though. One of the nice things about the P250 series is, despite being out of production for a few years, a number of components are shared with the P320 series, including magazines. So they should remain viable for many, many more years. Some parts supply is drying up a bit for them though, so if going with one of these, I'd stock up on some spare parts to be safe. I really regret not snatching up a dozen or more of these when Cabela's had a blowout on them years ago for something like $200-250 a piece.
If you don't mind the weight and prefer a metal-framed DAO, beyond the SIG DAK's others have mentioned, just about any Beretta 90-series is always an option. For carry, I'd probably opt for something like a 92 Compact. For DAO, there is the 92D / 96D (and Centurion versions), 92D-XR (rare), and possibly some rare models I'm forgetting. The D models are getting harder and harder to find but, nearly any 90-series can easily be converted to DAO by removal of a few components. If it was me and I was going the 92 route, I'd probably get something like a 92 Compact non-rail frame, convert it to DAO, add Langdon's TJIB, and call it a day. In a more perfect world, for me it might be a 92D Compact Type M but, I wouldn't have the heart to carry a $2-3K rare gun like that.
Bottom line, most of your options will probably be Beretta, HK, or SIG if looking for current or recent production options. Others exist but, you don't hear about them as much on PF, or else you do but they're long since out of production (e.g. S&W third gen autos or older).
While I like shooting my P250, don't go that route if you will need/want to mount a red dot. I have not found a viable option to do so.
Yes, the P250 is an evolutionary dead end.
I agree training to decock at a level of automaticity is a bigger hurdle than the trigger thing.
One thing that helps one to remember to decock, is to hit the lever every time before you reholster/come off target. Regardless of whether you have fired or not.
I agree with you that with enough training, I will become sufficient with a DA/SA, but lately I have been busy (and the price of ammo isn't helping either). So, I was thinking of getting a DAO pistol as a stop gap in the meantime.
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